View Full Version : Moved from the "How the FBI Investigates Computer Crime" thread
what I'm kind of surprised with on the FBI is the fact that this police and investigative organization apparantly never had Osama Bin Laden on their top 10 most wanted. Here's an alternative website I like to visit often:
Osama bin Laden’s role in the events of September 11, 2001 is not mentioned on the FBI’s “Ten Most Wanted” poster.
On June 5, 2006, author Ed Haas contacted the Federal Bureau of Investigation headquarters to ask why, while claimingthat bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 1998 bombings of US Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, the poster does not indicate that he is wanted in connection with the events of 9/11.
I realize we need to take some things with a grain of salt but it does spur some interest in some matters.
But have a look at this as well:
....“The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Osama bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.”
Maybe because he isn't the real culprit for the destruction of buildings and the death of thousands of people but the real culprit being the collaboration and collusion by such small elitists groups such as the Bilderberrg group, large global corporations such as companies that represent the pharmaceutical industry (i.e. vaccines) and others. I believe that this is no doubt all part and parcel of a global project for creating global chaos and fear through endemics, pandemics, terror, and what-not.
...Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” ...
It's unlikely that he will be let alone be found. Its more than likely that its designed he wont be found.
One thing I don't understand is that Bush labeled him as the culprit, had an entire country and it's allies go full force against him in Afghanistand and in Pakistan and yet the FBI hasn't yet labelled him as being the culprit being responsible.
Here's the link:'
Project Censored (http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/16-no-hard-evidence-connecting-bin-laden-to-9-11/)
Resurrection
05.12.10, 06:25
Seallion,what are you saying brother??
Osama has always been on FBI's most wanted list ever since he bombed them...
Even today he's on the list...
FBI — Be part of the solution. (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_by_the_fbi)
FBI — Ten Most Wanted (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten)
Don't trust all these websites...Sometimes they conjure up conspiracy theories to chalk up pagehits..
Seallion,what are you saying brother??
Osama has always been on FBI's most wanted list ever since he bombed them...
Even today he's on the list...
FBI — Be part of the solution. (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_by_the_fbi)
FBI — Ten Most Wanted (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten)
Don't trust all these websites...Sometimes they conjure up conspiracy theories to chalk up pagehits..
My bad. Your absolutely correct.
I stand corrected, then. :smile:
Osama has always been on FBI's most wanted list ever since he bombed them...
the article quoted isn't wrong, since they state:
Osama bin Laden’s role in the events of September 11, 2001 is not mentioned on the FBI’s “Ten Most Wanted” poster.
which is not the same as saying he wasn't in the 'top 10' at all, SealLion probably just forgot to add 9/11 to his post, like this:
never had Osama Bin Laden on their top 10 most wanted...
...specifically/explicitly for 9/11
One thing I don't understand is that Bush labeled him as the culprit, had an entire country and it's allies go full force against him in Afghanistand and in Pakistan and yet the FBI hasn't yet labelled him as being the culprit being responsible.
well, political speeches (bush) are known to be exaggerated and not trustworthy, on the other hand, written & signed documents carry a much heavier, more serious liability/responsibility according to the laws, which might indicate that the latter would be either avoided or carefully/generally written or labeled as (top) secret in order to minimize possible repercussions if found erroneous/false, etc.
bin laden was simply used to create a brand-name boogey-man, one that would give terrorism a personalized & localized arch-enemy image, always on the loose, a danger that never ends, until its purpose does, as arranged by the global puppeteers - the 'war on terror' concept had to be devised in such a way that its target is not too clearly visible or pinpoint-able (fi. it couldn't be a country since a single war would be able to eliminate the threat), one that is always at large and impossible to locate/isolate with certainty (al-qaida), one that is supposedly able to ally itself with just about any local militant group in other countries (taliban), which allows for multiple targets, multiple locations, many options for military actions (and subsequent spread of global governance), more public confusion & fear, etc.
just take a look at the whole investigation mess after 9/11, where fbi, cia, and a national commission made extensive reports (yet somehow missing many obvious leads and angles, as noted by independent investigators/activists), partially openly published, concluding something in the line of: that they aren't really sure but have strong indications...that soon enough got buried under numerous other related & unrelated issues, leaving this one (as usual) unresolved, but nevertheless actual/ongoing in consequences
actually, it seems that usa hasn't officially declared a war since 1941, yet that didn't stop them from entering a large number of conflicts at all, on the contrary, it has been a political constant for just about every elected presidential candidate for quite a while now, regardless of their political party - furthermore, there are claims that usa is legally still in a 'state of national emergency' since 1933, which may explain how wars can be led without a declaration and still be legal!
Good discussion in this thread indeed. :top:
The States collude just as equally on the same level plane to give this false impression of constant fear, terror, anxiety, panic, and suspicion that almost every Muslim is a terrorist.
What an insult to Muslims.
Well, the way Muslims see it; they call us terrorists, they blame us for terrorism BUT, the more they do the more people will convert to Islam (that's a fact). Therefore, this war on terrorism is backfiring on the people who 'invented' it. Imo, it's logical thinking so it may not be an insult after all
Regards
suspicion that almost every Muslim is a terrorist.
What an insult to Muslims.
that might be viewed as an insult, but only if it gets generalized (applied to all muslims) or if one takes it (highly) personally - both of these are extreme views, thus naturally not applicable for the majority - that's the theory, but in practice these kind of views are quite widespread, due to tendentious/sensationalist opinions being preferred/pushed by the media and due to a tendency of dividing opinions into opposing groups with a lack of (self) criticism ('with us or against us', left/right scenario) and an expectance of conformity within the groups, ie. marginalization of individuality (of opinion)
they blame us for terrorism BUT, the more they do the more people will convert to Islam (that's a fact).
can't agree with this, imo people are converting to islam mostly because of its benefits as a religious establishment (compared to others, mostly applies to males, mostly the result of 'being talked into it'), due to marriage (one partner is adamant about the common religion), less because of actual religious beliefs and even less because of other reasons (like solidarity with victims of usa abuse, out of spite,...) - not counting the most prevalent reason being parental influence (traditional way, but i wouldn't call it a 'conversion')
this war on terrorism is backfiring on the people who 'invented' it.
i'm afraid they were counting on that while devising it, with the aim to steer it into a inter-religious conflict or inter-national one, while the real culprits (individuals & smaller groups) still remain 'untouchable', which can be seen throughout history (of warfare/conflicts)
The thread's about how the Federal bureau in the US investigates computer crime, not anything else. Suggest this discussion be moved somewhere else or ended.
The thread's about how the Federal bureau in the US investigate computer crime, not anything else. Suggest this discussion be moved somewhere else or ended.
Deal. Now give me my paycheck. :gmad:
I'd hate to move this discussion to a section where posts don't count, so let's make an exception to the rules and put it on the "General News" forum. :gsmile:
well, yes.
that is correct with respect to the original discussion on the FBI, but you know...discussions do seem to have a tangent to them. Even IRL they do. :)
Extraterrestrial
09.12.10, 18:50
It's unlikely that he will be let alone be found. Its more than likely that its designed he wont be found.
The mastermind of 9/11 attacks wasn't Osama Bin Laden, It's a common mistake.
Osama was part of the Afghan Arab fighters group who were fighting against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, after the soviet withdraw, he got back to Saudi Arabia. At that time, Sadam Hussein invaded neighboring Kuwait threatening Saudi Arabia, Osama offered the help of himself and his group of Al-Qaeda to defend Saudi Arabia against Iraq but instead of accepting Osama offer, King Fahd accepted the American help to defend Saudi Arabia during the first gulf war. This of course is a heresy in Islam to have infidels on the land of the Arab peninsula. Prophet Mohammad made it clear on his deathbed : get the infidels, jews and christians out of the Arab peninsula, this is like his will so Osama driven by this religious duty and personal humiliation began to organize his Al-Qaeda group, first he went to Sudan and masterminded and his deputy Ayman Al Zawahre many terroristic attacks on Egypt killing about 400 civilians, foreign tourists and failed attempted assassinations on political leaders. After pressure on Sudanese government, they told bin laden to get out of Sudan, he deployed in Afghanistan where the Taliban regime was ruling over the country and provided safe haven for him and his group of Al-Qaeda. From there, he masterminded the US Kenya and Tanzania embassies attacks, later the 9/11 planes operation and many others.
Bin Laden's role was religious & scholarly guidance and that's what the Al-Qaeda always said, in Al-Qaeda "knowledge is for acting upon" propaganda tape, bin laden is talking about meeting with some of the 19 hijackers (the Hamburg cell) but it isn't clear if he was behind the idea of using planes as missiles to crash into buildings, he knew the details of the Manhattan raid but he wasn't the mastermind of the operation, he only gave his blessing to the operation imo, it was clear though that the world trade center was a target of Al-Qaeda since they tried to blow it up in 1993.
1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Trade_Center_bombing)
So who is the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks:
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed)
...specifically/explicitly for 9/11
Bin laden is on the FBI most wanted list since the 90s, I don't see the great importance of listing & updating all the accusations of which he is wanted for on a website used for guidance, after all, FBI most wanted list website is only a guide for those who have information about the guys involved, no conspiracy on that, for example, you have this little funny information about bin laden :
SHOULD BE CONSIDERED ARMED AND DANGEROUS
No kidding! :lol:
also, they don't mention the Cole bombing of October 2000, does it mean he isn't wanted for bombing it?
FBI — USAMA BIN LADEN (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/usama-bin-laden/view)
Browse the rest of the FBI most wanted terrorists list, using just one indictment, is the norm. Even Ayman al-Zawahiri, Anas al-Liby or Adam Gadahn are only tied to single indictments.
FBI — Most Wanted Terrorists (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists)
The mastermind of 9/11 attacks wasn't Osama Bin Laden...So who is the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks:
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
nope, the masterminds were hidden global think-tanks & puppeteers, the events were arranged by high-ranked usa & israeli intelligence/governmental officials with subsequent compartmentalization concerning lower clearance personnel, officially/publicly it was blamed on militant islamist group(s) & individuals, its all a part of the pre-fabricated 'war on terror' agenda
Sadam Hussein invaded neighboring Kuwait threatening Saudi Arabia
he invaded after getting 'the green light' from usa, saudi arabia was never in any real danger
This of course is a heresy in Islam to have infidels on the land of the Arab peninsula.
nonsense, since in that case the following wouldn't be possible:
In areas which were previously under Sassanid Persian or Byzantine rule, the Caliphs lowered taxes, provided greater local autonomy, greater religious freedom for Jews, indigenous Christians
Prophet Mohammad made it clear on his deathbed : get the infidels, jews and christians out of the Arab peninsula, this is like his will so Osama driven by this religious duty and personal humiliation began to organize his Al-Qaeda group, first he went to Sudan ...many terroristic attacks on Egypt ...After pressure ...he deployed in Afghanistan...he masterminded the US Kenya and Tanzania embassies
notice however that none of these countries belong to the arabian peninsula, which makes your statement baseless - also, i doubt 'the prophet' would leave such a statement for some of his last words, besides, he lived many centuries earlier:
Origin of INFIDEL
Middle English infidele, from Middle French, from Late Latin infidelis unbelieving, from Latin, unfaithful, from in- + fidelis faithful — more at fidelity
First Known Use: 15th century
it was clear though that the world trade center was a target of Al-Qaeda since they tried to blow it up in 1993.
it was an inside job, just like 9/11
the fictitious al qaida is an an usa sponsored/created intelligence asset, a 'list' of people collaborating on specific assignments in the islamic countries, useful as a way to infiltrate/connect to other militant organizations with similar alignment and/or to create new ones (the same goes for recruiting individuals)
Who Bombed the U.S. World Trade Center? — 1993
Growing Evidence Points to Role of FBI Operative
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SCH404A.html
Extraterrestrial
10.12.10, 02:29
nope, the masterminds were hidden global think-tanks & puppeteers, the events were arranged by high-ranked usa & israeli intelligence/governmental officials with subsequent compartmentalization concerning lower clearance personnel, officially/publicly it was blamed on militant islamist group(s) & individuals, its all a part of the pre-fabricated 'war on terror' agenda
nonsense, this is a fictitious narrative to the reality of the attacks, militant islamist groups were never a traitor to their religion.
he invaded after getting 'the green light' from usa, saudi arabia was never in any real danger
lol, funny, after invading Iraq, Saudi Arabia allied with the US to liberate Kuwait, in fact almost all American soldiers were getting deployed from Saudi Arabia to Kuwait.
All sadam speeches in this period were portraying Saudi Arabia as the Kingdom of evil, the US fearing that sadam might invade Saudi Arabia and control all the Oil coming from it offered help to King Fahd and from Saudi Arabia and other gulf countries they launched operation Desert Storm and in response Iraq launched many Scud missiles on Riyad SA capital and tried to invade Saudi cities including Al khafgi and many others.
nonsense, since in that case the following wouldn't be possible:
notice however that none of these countries belong to the arabian peninsula, which makes your statement baseless - also, i doubt 'the prophet' would leave such a statement for some of his last words, besides, he lived many centuries earlier:
Sorry but I'm afraid you're ignorant on many points:
1- I was talking about the Arabian peninsula not about islamic rule over Persia or Byzantine , this belongs to a completely different discussion.
2- your doubt has nothing to do with the facts :
( أخرجوا المشركين من جزيرة العرب ) or ( لأخرجنَّ اليهود والنصارى من جزيرة العرب حتى لا أدع إلا مسلماً ) AKA get the infidels out of the Arabian peninsula is a well known hadith to all muslims and Arabs around the world, here is an arabic islamic website belongs to the most famous Saudi clerk where you can read more about the shariaa law regarding having Jews, christians and infidels in arabic peninsula ( use google translate):
http://islamqa.com/ar/ref/104806
3- After fleeing from SA, the only Arab country that could shelter bin laden was Sudan ( the only Arab country governed by Sharia law) and storming neighboring Egypt was Al Zawahre idea ( he was the head of al-jihad organization in Egypt merging later with al-Qaeda ), reading some history won't affect you.
Afghanistan was the only safe haven for him after being expelled from Sudan , attacks in US embassies in Africa because they Americans targets to Al-Qaeda every where.
4-Al-Qaeda from 2001 to 2003 attacked SA three times, specially in the american Headquarters in Khubar killing and injuring hundreds of American soldiers ( surprise surprise! you weren't aware of that lol).
it was an inside job, just like 9/11
the fictitious al qaida is an an usa sponsored/created intelligence asset, a 'list' of people collaborating on specific assignments in the islamic countries, useful as a way to infiltrate/connect to other militant organizations with similar alignment and/or to create new ones (the same goes for recruiting individuals)
You may call inside job all day and night but it won't be just because you said so with your conspiracy bullsh**, also we should have a respectable discussion using words not links because the last time we used links we gave each other a negative rep.
---------- Post added at 03:29 ---------- Previous post was at 03:13 ----------
Origin of INFIDEL
Middle English infidele, from Middle French, from Late Latin infidelis unbelieving, from Latin, unfaithful, from in- + fidelis faithful — more at fidelity
First Known Use: 15th century
The arabic word of infidel is Kaffer (كافر) so your online English dictionary doesn't apply here, the word "kaffer" "kuffar "plural" is used heavily in Quran verses, and from it you have the word "takfir" which means calling someone a "kaffer".
The discussion in this thread is moving from debating who was responsible for 9/11 to attacking a religion and saying it orders followers to kill/attack non-Muslims.
The last time I checked the map (a long time tbh.), Ground zero was in North America and not in the Arabian peninsula. In addition, Pakistan and its neighbours were not in the Arabian peninsula. Did things change now? Am I missing somthing, did geography change after I left school? :wondering:
Extraterrestrial
10.12.10, 20:39
Afaik, this thread was about bin laden.
@Extraterrestrial:
after invading Iraq, Saudi Arabia allied with the US to liberate Kuwait, in fact almost all American soldiers were getting deployed from Saudi Arabia to Kuwait.
actually, they were already allies for at least a few decades, so the deployment was obviously possible as close as in this kuwait-neighboring country
they launched operation Desert Storm and in response Iraq launched many Scud missiles on Riyad SA capital and tried to invade Saudi cities including Al khafgi and many others.
the key word here is response
as for the 'many cities', are you counting villages as well? ;)
1.
I was talking about the Arabian peninsula not about islamic rule
so what are you saying, that mohammad's successors weren't representing islamic rule, or that they disobeyed him? notice that a significant part of the peninsula was indeed populated (and/or ruled) by non-arabic (and/or pre-islamic) people, during & after his life
2.
use google translate
not a good suggestion, especially when trying to find out the meaning of a sentence/text
3.
the only Arab country that could shelter bin laden was Sudan ( the only Arab country governed by Sharia law)
wrong again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_with_Sharia_rule.png
@4. just because an attack occurred and got attributed to some organization doesn't mean that they actually did it (even with a confession/claim), its called a 'false flag' attack
a respectable discussion using words not links because the last time we used links we gave each other a negative rep.
there are respectable or near-respectable links as well
you started with the negative rep, don't expect me to simply ignore it
The arabic word of infidel is Kaffer (كافر) so your online English dictionary doesn't apply here, the word "kaffer" "kuffar "plural" is used heavily in Quran verses, and from it you have the word "takfir" which means calling someone a "kaffer".
if you want to be exact, then takfir & kaffer apply only to muslims who in some way knowingly abandon islam or its core beliefs (it also seems that this kind of label is not given lightly, in legal sense, needing significant evidence to justify it), the correct translation being: unbeliever ('one who hides the truth') - the connection of this term with other religions is a recent development (distortion), certainly much later than mohammad's time
@caballero:
to attacking a religion and saying it orders followers to kill/attack non-Muslims.
(all) religions have a certain amount of extremist elements/viewpoints/events in their writings, that collide with the overall moderate tone of the majority of written material, these may be interpreted in a more literal/obligating way (fundamentalist tendency) or in a more moderate/modernized way (taking into consideration non-religious societal developments)
who was responsible for 9/11
here is a short science-oriented brochure focused on some of the holes/inconsistencies in the official 9/11 interpretation:
http://www2.ae911truth.org/downloads/graphics/AEstreet_3-beam.pdf
Extraterrestrial
10.12.10, 23:19
the key word here is response
as for the 'many cities', are you counting villages as well?
The key factor isn't waiting till you get attacked.
so what are you saying, that mohammad's successors weren't representing islamic rule, or that they disobeyed him? notice that a significant part of the peninsula was indeed populated (and/or ruled) by non-arabic (and/or pre-islamic) people, during & after his life
In fact, caliph Omar ( the second caliph ) executed it by expelling Jews from khybar, according to radicals, all Arab political regimes are apostates from Islam specially in the gulf countries, Yeman and SA because of not adhering to Islamic law.
Whatever, this belongs to a different discussion maybe in a religious section, let's concentrate on bin laden.
not a good suggestion, especially when trying to find out the meaning of a sentence/text
I can't translate whole text.
wrong again:
Recent history (1989–present)
Main articles: War in Darfur, Chad-Sudan conflict, and Eastern Front (Sudan)
On 30 June 1989, colonel Omar al-Bashir led a group of army officers in ousting the unstable coalition government of Prime Minister Sadiq al-Mahdi in a bloodless military coup.[9] Under al-Bashir's leadership, the new military government suspended political parties and introduced an Islamic legal code on the national level.[37] He then became Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council for National Salvation (a newly established body with legislative and executive powers for what was described as a transitional period), and assumed the posts of chief of state, prime minister, chief of the armed forces, and minister of defense.[38] Subsequent to al-Bashir's promotion to the Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council for National Salvation, he allied himself with Hassan al-Turabi, the leader of the National Islamic Front (NIF), who along with al-Bashir began institutionalizing Sharia law in the northern part of Sudan. Further on, al-Bashir issued purges and executions in the upper ranks of the army, the banning of associations, political parties, and independent newspapers and the imprisonment of leading political figures and journalists.[39]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan
The map is wrong.
if you want to be exact, then takfir & kaffer apply only to muslims who in some way knowingly abandon islam or its core beliefs (it also seems that this kind of label is not given lightly, in legal sense, needing significant evidence to justify it), the correct translation being: unbeliever ('one who hides the truth') - the connection of this term with other religions is a recent development (distortion), certainly much later than mohammad's time
nope, kaffer is an infidel, "mortad" (مرتد) AKA renegade is a muslim who in some way knowingly abandon islam or its core beliefs.
(منافق) AKA hypocrite is one who hides the truth.
All are common terms in early Islam but again this has nothing to do with bin laden.
here is a short science-oriented brochure focused on some of the holes/inconsistencies in the official 9/11 interpretation:
eh!, you may find it useful to browse this site also:
http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/911/twin-towers/
http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/911/building-seven/
@Extraterrestrial:
The key factor isn't waiting till you get attacked.
waiting shouldn't be too hard when one has an ample backup of (among others) usa ground & air forces already deployed and ready for combat
according to radicals, all Arab political regimes are apostates from Islam specially in the gulf countries, Yeman and SA because of not adhering to Islamic law.
interesting, yet they reserve bombings for usa & its allies only, i'd say thats a bit too convenient for the external enemies and a bit too colliding with the supposed fanaticism, even with their own local regime's inability to deal with them, not to mention strategically futile - ie. way too many inconsistencies
I can't translate whole text.
The map is wrong.
then we have a 'stub' here ;)
eh!, you may find it useful to browse this site also:
what i noticed about that site is that they pretend to be skeptics yet seem to agree with just about every official explanation (paradox), their personal profiles have no real weight behind the statements and would you call this:
Since JFK and possibly the Oklahoma City Bombing there has not really been much conspiracy theorists could banter about, so it is not surprising that when this tragic event happened, almost instantly conspiracy theories began to flood the Internet.
trustworthy/unbiased attitude? don't think so...
Extraterrestrial
11.12.10, 23:18
waiting shouldn't be too hard when one has an ample backup of (among others) usa ground & air forces already deployed and ready for combat
Defensive war is always a bad choice, when you have invaded a neighboring country threatening others, the wisest choice isn't waiting till you get attacked.
interesting, yet they reserve bombings for usa & its allies only, i'd say thats a bit too convenient for the external enemies and a bit too colliding with the supposed fanaticism, even with their own local regime's inability to deal with them, not to mention strategically futile - ie. way too many inconsistencies
Based on your false/lacking information, they succeeded in carrying out many attacks in almost every Middle-Eastern country including assassinating and trying to assassinate political leaders.
Examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Egypt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Saudi_Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Yemen
then we have a 'stub' here
If you want a translation for a certain phrase/word, then it's ok but not whole articles, takes a lot of time and effort :tongue:
Btw, the map seems to be accurate since you have two states in Sudan, the north ruled by Shariaa and the South governed by English law so Regional law is the accurate term.
what i noticed about that site is that they pretend to be skeptics yet seem to agree with just about every official explanation (paradox)
What's wrong of being skeptical of the conspiracy theories cult :tongue:?
they succeeded in carrying out many attacks in almost every Middle-Eastern country including assassinating and trying to assassinate political leaders.
notice however that a significant majority of these attacks have been aimed at killing foreign (western, usa, british, etc.) tourists/citizens, much less at military personnel and the small minority at political figures - what would be expected though is exactly the opposite order, if the attacks are indeed genuinely interested in fi. influencing the local politics or driving out foreign threats, since tourists are naturally the least interesting target - interestingly, by focusing on civilian targets, quite the opposite is achieved, the 'war on terror' agenda getting even more political support in the west, more than it could ever dream of achieving without these attacks, which would mean that the terrorists are acting against their own interests and i find it very hard to believe that they are simply ignorant or don't care about it, its yet another hint at a rigged game to advance western imperialist (concerning foreign countries) and dictatorial (concerning their own countries) goals - it can be seen through history as well, take a look at the 'dreaded' ira or hamas - what exactly have they achieved? it must have been something since new generations are attempting to use a similar path, but what is it, this achievement?...exactly, there is none, its mostly a plethora of false flag operations by intelligence agencies with duped assets
the same scenario is visible when observing the targets/casualties of the most hyped terrorist organization today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_al-Qaeda_attacks
furthermore, no one seems to question how can it be that the so-called islamist terrorists now have the same targets as the israeli (military) intelligence a few decades ago:
Lavon Affair
A covert operation under the direction of Israeli military intelligence with the intent to destablize the Nasser government in the summer of 1954 through terrorist bombings of Egyptian, American and British government facilities was unsuccessful and the Israeli trained Egyptian Jewish operatives who planted the bombs were all captured, although all of their Israeli handlers escaped. The Lavon Affair, so named because Israeli Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon was later implicated and forced to resign, was a false flag operation with evidence planted at the bomb sites implicating the Muslim Brotherhood.[8]
combine this with the above mentioned intelligence involvement in 1993 and you get a hint at how much these so-called independent terrorist groups are actually infiltrated by intelligence agents, up to the point where these agents alone incite violent actions, provide the necessary material, safe-houses, etc. - the other, easier scenario for the intelligence agencies would of course be to simply 'invent' a terrorist organization and then go about recruiting willing participants, where they can control every operation since they run it!
Extraterrestrial
12.12.10, 03:26
notice however that a significant majority of these attacks have been aimed at killing foreign (western, usa, british, etc.) tourists/citizens, much less at military personnel and the small minority at political figures
notice however that killing civilians in the radicals ideology isn't something evil and killing tourists was an act of rebel against the state who refused to apply the islamic law regarding having "idols" aka "Ancient Egyptian Antiquities" open to the public, forbidding wine & other unislamic systems which was all associated with tourism and it's evil repercussions on islamic society.
Killing a president, trying to kill another one and many attempts to kill political leaders (interior ministers) isn't a small minority.
what would be expected though is exactly the opposite order, if the attacks are indeed genuinely interested in fi. influencing the local politics or driving out foreign threats, since tourists are naturally the least interesting target
Again you are talking from your POV (western).
interestingly, by focusing on civilian targets, quite the opposite is achieved, the 'war on terror' agenda getting even more political support in the west, more than it could ever dream of achieving without these attacks, which would mean that the terrorists are acting against their own interests and i find it very hard to believe that they are simply ignorant or don't care about it,
There is no difference in their interpretation between civilians and warriors, they say that you're either helping or not and westerns civilians are helping their governments by electing & funding them (paying taxes) so killing is acceptable.
its yet another hint at a rigged game to advance western imperialist (concerning foreign countries) and dictatorial (concerning their own countries) goals - it can be seen through history as well, take a look at the 'dreaded' ira or hamas - what exactly have they achieved? it must have been something since new generations are attempting to use a similar path, but what is it, this achievement?...exactly, there is none, its mostly a plethora of false flag operations by intelligence agencies with duped assets
These organizations don't look forward to short term benefits.
The rest is conspiracy nonsense tbh.
furthermore, no one seems to question how can it be that the so-called islamist terrorists now have the same targets as the israeli (military) intelligence a few decades ago:
This operation was performed by Jewish people not by Muslims in a time where Abd El-Nasser was inciting other Arab states to attack Israel, a few years later, Israel launched a war against Egypt in 1967, after 6 years Egypt won the war in 1973 and then signed a peace treaty.
What does a failed Jewish terrorist attack have to do with our discussion?
combine this with the above mentioned intelligence involvement in 1993 and you get a hint at how much these so-called independent terrorist groups are actually infiltrated by intelligence agents, up to the point where these agents alone incite violent actions, provide the necessary material, safe-houses, etc. - the other, easier scenario for the intelligence agencies would of course be to simply 'invent' a terrorist organization and then go about recruiting willing participants, where they can control every operation since they run it!
There is no question about intelligence agencies failure to detect terroristic attacks, much of it lies in the bureaucracy that the FBI, CIA, and military intelligence has to deal with, instead of making conspiracies on that subject, i recommend you reading these two books:
The 1993 World Trade Center Bombing: Foresight and Warning
http://books.google.com/books?id=P3PO_lfVZmQC&lpg=PA6&dq=Was%20there%20an%20intelligence%20movement%20in volvement%20in%20world%20trade%20center%201993&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
Breakdown: how America's intelligence failures led to September 11
http://books.google.com/books?id=5QWzZXb1D7QC&lpg=PA26&ots=ZG-4FqqP6X&dq=Was%20there%20an%20intelligence%20movement%20in volvement%20in%20world%20trade%20center%201993&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
killing tourists was an act of rebel against the state who refused to apply the islamic law
but it still makes little or no sense to do so, since regardless of the law governing the country it won't change anything concerning the tourist beliefs, they will not become compelled to convert to islam (especially if it is a fundamentalist type) - the rebellion, if it was genuine, would be directed towards those that are the key elements in establishing/steering a system of values/rules (government, politicians, multinational/large companies, etc.) - through attacks on tourists the islamist terrorists lose whatever shreds of validity they may have had
There is no difference in their interpretation between civilians and warriors, they say that you're either helping or not and westerns civilians are helping their governments by electing & funding them (paying taxes) so killing is acceptable.
sounds very similar to the bush quote: 'you're either with us or against us'
as for the rest, it is nothing more than a justification, an excuse to do something that would otherwise be condemned in common life (ie. bending the 'rules' to fit the goal)
There is no question about intelligence agencies failure to detect terroristic attacks, much of it lies in the bureaucracy that the FBI, CIA, and military intelligence has to deal with
thats what they want you to think, that they made huge/unbelievable mistakes, but the evidence shows a much more sinister involvement & pre-planning, one that will benefit only the elite, not their countries/people, as already witnessed in the effects of the 'patriot act' and similar documents
another hint at how the terrorists lack sincerity is their usage of the 9/11 events in propaganda, playing along with usa, taking the 'blame' for something they could only dream of accomplishing and turning it into 'glorious deeds' for religious causes that will serve well as a legend/myth for attracting new recruits, hiding their real incompetence & collusion with western elitists/stooges (who always play on both/multiple sides in a conflict, profiting as usual from the outcome), whereas the media presents them as mortal enemies to the unsuspecting public
Extraterrestrial
13.12.10, 22:12
but it still makes little or no sense to do so, since regardless of the law governing the country it won't change anything concerning the tourist beliefs, they will not become compelled to convert to islam (especially if it is a fundamentalist type) - the rebellion, if it was genuine, would be directed towards those that are the key elements in establishing/steering a system of values/rules (government, politicians, multinational/large companies, etc.) - through attacks on tourists the islamist terrorists lose whatever shreds of validity they may have had
I explained it above and i won't repeat it again plus these attacks were part of the overall picture, for government, politicians, here you are:
1- On 28 December 1948 Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha was shot and assassinated by Abdel Meguid Ahmed Hassan, a veterinary student and member of the Muslim Brotherhood.
2- After a nationalist military coup led by Gamal Abdel Nasser overthrew the Egyptian monarchy, the Brotherhood were very disappointed to find the officers were secular in orientation and the brotherhood did not gain influence. On 26 October 1954 a member of the brotherhood attempted to assassinate President Nasser and a general suppression of the Brotherhood followed, including imprisonment of thousands of members and the execution of six of its most prominent leaders.
3- By 1981 President Anwar Sadat had become unpopular among Egyptians and enraged Islamists by signing a peace treaty with Israel. On 6 October 1981 Sadat and six diplomats were assassinated while observing a military parade commemorating the eighth anniversary of the October 1973 War. Lieutenant Colonel Khalid Islambouli and two other members of the Tanzim al-Jihad movement fired machine guns and threw grenades into the reviewing stand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBQ7y_LxjAM
4- Victims of campaign against the Egyptian state from 1992-1997 totaled more than 1200 and included the head of the counter-terrorism police (Major General Raouf Khayrat), dozens of European tourists and Egyptian bystanders, and over 100 Egyptian police.
5- In October 1990, Egyptian Islamic Jihad attempted to assassinate Egyptian Interior Minster Abdel-Halim Moussa but ended up killing parliamentary Speaker Rifaat el-Mahgoub by mistake.
6- 1993 was a particularly severe year for terrorist attacks in Egypt. 1106 persons were killed or wounded. More police (120) than terrorists (111) were killed that year and "several senior police officials and their bodyguards were shot dead in daylight ambushes."
7- 8 June 1992 – assassination of Farag Foda.
8- 26 June 1995 – attempt to assassinate Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
9- 19 November 1995 – Car bomb attack on the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan. 16 people were killed.
sounds very similar to the bush quote: 'you're either with us or against us'
hehe, but with a slight variation, Bush targets countries while militant groups targets individuals.
thats what they want you to think, that they made huge/unbelievable mistakes, but the evidence shows a much more sinister involvement & pre-planning, one that will benefit only the elite, not their countries/people, as already witnessed in the effects of the 'patriot act' and similar documents
Who are they?
On the other side, you are made to think that intelligence agencies have God Powers to be able to monitor everyone at the same time.
another hint at how the terrorists lack sincerity is their usage of the 9/11 events in propaganda, playing along with usa, taking the 'blame' for something they could only dream of accomplishing and turning it into 'glorious deeds' for religious causes that will serve well as a legend/myth for attracting new recruits, hiding their real incompetence & collusion with western elitists/stooges (who always play on both/multiple sides in a conflict, profiting as usual from the outcome), whereas the media presents them as mortal enemies to the unsuspecting public
and how do you know what they are really hiding other than the conspiracy mumbo jumbo?
the Muslim Brotherhood...a member of the brotherhood attempted to assassinate President Nasser and a general suppression of the Brotherhood followed
here is an example of their competence concerning this attack:
The gunman, 25 feet (7.6 m) away from him, fired eight shots, but all missed
the following events:
Upon returning to Cairo, he ordered one of the largest political crackdowns in the history of Egypt, with the arrests of over 20,000 people, mostly members of the Brotherhood, but also Communists, Wafd activists, and sympathizers of these groups within the military leadership.
which shows how this is a very suspicious incident that looks like a staged attempt that justified a wide-range of politically motivated persecution (false-flag scenario), especially since the 'muslim brotherhood' is supposed to be a moderate organization, another hint at infiltrated agents smearing their reputation (see above the example for israeli military intelligence involvement)
Unraveling the Myth of Al Qaida
The myth of "al Qaida" is built on an expansive foundation of many half-truths and hidden facts. It is a CIA creation. It was shaped by the agency to serve as a substitute "enemy" for America, replacing the Soviets whom the Islamist forces had driven from Afghanistan. Unknown American officials, at an indeterminate point in time, made the decision to fabricate the tale of a mythical worldwide network of Islamic terrorists from the exploits of the Afghan Mujahedeen. The CIA already had their own network of Islamic militant "freedom fighters," all that was needed were a few scattered terrorist attacks against US targets and a credible heroic figurehead, to serve as the "great leader."
The really tricky part of creating a mythical terrorist monster out of an incomplete truth is laying-out the facts behind your mythical story without revealing the whole truth about your part in its creation. In order to explain away the billions of dollars worth of weapons and training that went into the operation, they chose a rich jihadi, a Saudi millionaire named Osama bin Laden, who had been a faithful recruiter and business agent of the Mujahedeen. He was painted as the sole financier of the entire enormous operation that was centered in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Bin Laden may not even have known that he was playing a part in a deceitful CIA global drama until after the fact. It is more likely that his history was chosen many years later to serve as the legacy of "al Qaida," than it is that he was a brainwashed tool of the spy agency all along.
The story of bin Laden is the story of the secret CIA/ISI insurgent camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan. According to Prof. Michel Chossudovsky, Osama was 22 years old in 1979, when he was trained in a CIA sponsored guerilla training camp near Peshawar, Pakistan.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7787
with a slight variation, Bush targets countries while militant groups targets individuals.
not essentially, he targets (terrorizes) countries, groups, individuals - the only reason why the islamic terrorists don't go after whole countries is their limited size, which is intentionally kept low by their handlers (western stooges) so that in case of a rebellion (blow-back) their power would be of a limited scale, ie. non-threatening to the usa & co. (they mostly don't want a full-scale local conflict as it is more profitable to have/create/stir occasional incidents as needed - easier to manage)
Who are they?
primarily usa & israeli governments, their military & intelligence apparatus, their media & corporate leaders, members of various national/international organizations (un, eu), think-tanks, councils (cfr), commissions (trilateral c.), different more or less hidden elitists and a plethora of lower level personnel of various ranks in many different countries - detailed enough? :P
you are made to think that intelligence agencies have God Powers to be able to monitor everyone at the same time.
not really, the holes regarding the official 9/11 story (among others) are easily putting the swiss cheese to shame, the only reason why it hasn't already collapsed like a house of cards is because of the higher level officials that perpetuate the myth on many societal levels, ignoring/marginalizing genuine independent research into the matter
how do you know what they are really hiding
see the link above & the following one:
Today's 'Islamic Fascists' Were Yesterday's Friends
In a nutshell, the wars over state, territory, and politics that defined the Cold War era have given way to cosmic battles between "good" and "evil" – between a West apparently keen to defend secular, democratic values and its twisted opponents who prefer the idea of autocratic Islam.
This simplistic view of the new geopolitical landscape is deeply problematic. It overlooks the key role that the West played in nurturing radical Islamist groups, precisely as a means of isolating and undermining secular movements that were judged by Western governments to be too uppity or dangerous. Over the past 80 years and more – from Egypt to Afghanistan to Palestine – powerful governments in the West and their allies in the Middle East helped to create radical Islamic sects as a bulwark against secular nationalist parties or pan-Arabism. They gave the nod to, and in some instances funded and armed, Islamist movements that might challenge the claims of local anti-colonial, liberationist, or communistic outfits.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3109
primarily usa & israeli governments, their military & intelligence apparatus, their media & corporate leaders, members of various national/international organizations (un, eu), think-tanks, councils (cfr), commissions (trilateral c.), different more or less hidden elitists and a plethora of lower level personnel of various ranks in many different countries - detailed enough? :P
This is the point people are not accepting. They think that the globalist/elite (the ones you mentioned) sit together in a meeting on a big round table (or talking through a secure line from the us to israel:P) and discuss what they plan to do next. It doesn't work like this, they themselves don't know one another, the hierarchy is way too big, big enough to make you think this isn't happening. Yes, it's difficult to imagine, but that's what is really going on.
you are made to think that intelligence agencies have God Powers to be able to monitor everyone at the same time.
slikrapid already answered, they don't have God powers!, they do make mistakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution). The way they operate to minimise errors: plan dozens of years ahead and things may go right.
http://www.globalresearch.ca
How much do you spend reading this site :D
Extraterrestrial
14.12.10, 02:26
This is the point people are not accepting. They think that the globalist/elite (the ones you mentioned) sit together in a meeting on a big round table (or talking through a secure line from the us to israel) and discuss what they plan to do next. It doesn't work like this, they themselves don't know one another, the hierarchy is way too big, big enough to make you think this isn't happening. Yes, it's difficult to imagine, but that's what is really going on.
In fact, some conspiracy theorists claim that they actually meet, know each other very well, plan ahead for world dominance and a unified world government (The Bilderberg Group), you can find loads of docs & articles about this conspiracy theory.
They think that the globalist/elite (the ones you mentioned) sit together in a meeting on a big round table (or talking through a secure line from the us to israel) and discuss what they plan to do next. It doesn't work like this, they themselves don't know one another, the hierarchy is way too big, big enough to make you think this isn't happening.
the hierarchy is indeed quite large, but a few things should be taken into consideration, like: at the top levels there aren't that many elitists (maybe a few dozens up to a few hundred) so coordination at that level isn't too difficult (with the possibility of a number of more or less competing structures) and the fact that many of them share membership across all kinds of top-level (inter)national organizations, so they definitely have a good overview of different overarching goals within and/or above and/or between them, furthermore, if their ancestry is taken into consideration (a significant linking point at which they are very proud of) only a limited number of the so-called 'bloodlines' may be abstracted - thus, by taking this into consideration, the communication might not be such a problem after all
How much do you spend reading this site
actually, not that much overall, but from time to time as some topic arises - i noticed that they are quite versed & decent in their analyses so its a good source, though on the negative side, they are limited to a more down-to-earth view on political matters (ie. not too interested in stepping outside those boundaries when examining events) and they tend to have a prevailing left-wing bias as well, but i guess nobody is perfect, eh? ;)
Extraterrestrial
14.12.10, 03:27
here is an example of their competence concerning this attack:
We don't have any visual records from the failed attempted assassination so all what can you do is to imagine what really happened but you really amaze me when you make conspiracies out of nothing but a failed one i'm afraid to be:
1- the one who tried to assassinate Naser was from the muslim brotherhood and was sentenced to death ( you can't say he was hired to do it because no one is willing to die for a lie).
2- 7.6 m away from the platform without talking into your account that the platform was at least 6 m high.
3-Nasser was already a dictator so he could persecuted his opponents without an excuse like the current president ( what do you expect from a man who led a military overthrow).
4- Thanks for not making conspiracies on the rest of the political assassinations.
5-
especially since the 'muslim brotherhood' is supposed to be a moderate organization,
wrong , reading directly from your source, we find the following:
In the early and middle 20th century, both British and U.S. intelligence supported the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, the group from which so many of today's radical Islamic sects – including Hamas and even al-Qaeda – have sprung.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3109
Unraveling the Myth of Al Qaida
I'm not going to make comments on each statement, you may find these articles also interesting since we're exchanging articles:
http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_links_to_the_cia.html
http://www.911myths.com/html/do_al_qaeda_exist.html
http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_links.html
not essentially, he targets (terrorizes) countries, groups, individuals - the only reason why the islamic terrorists don't go after whole countries is their limited size, which is intentionally kept low by their handlers (western stooges) so that in case of a rebellion (blow-back) their power would be of a limited scale, ie. non-threatening to the usa & co. (they mostly don't want a full-scale local conflict as it is more profitable to have/create/stir occasional incidents as needed - easier to manage)
aha!
so the US government is funding al-Qaeda fighters in Iraq & Afghanistan to kill American soldiers and make the rest of them handicapped and disabled, thanks for the info :tongue:
pls, take into your account hundreds of rich middle-eastern "charity organizations" & individuals who fund them willingly.
primarily usa & israeli governments, their military & intelligence apparatus, their media & corporate leaders, members of various national/international organizations (un, eu), think-tanks, councils (cfr), commissions (trilateral c.), different more or less hidden elitists and a plethora of lower level personnel of various ranks in many different countries - detailed enough?
so how many zeros do we have to count to total the number of the conspirators?
10000
sounds reasonable, i'll think about it.
not really, the holes regarding the official 9/11 story (among others) are easily putting the swiss cheese to shame, the only reason why it hasn't already collapsed like a house of cards is because of the higher level officials that perpetuate the myth on many societal levels, ignoring/marginalizing genuine independent research into the matter
no hard evidence = conspiracy nonsense imo.
@Extraterrestrial:
but you really amaze me when you make conspiracies out of nothing
hehe, who said anything about conspiracies? its a suspicious event with a shallow official interpretation and a convenient aftermath, ie. i don't 'buy it' ;)
generally, there is a tendency of using the term 'conspiracy (theory)' too lightly, waving it around like a banner, as if the mere mentioning should be sufficient to discard all evidence/investigation related to it (or labeled to be as such), but naturally this will only satisfy those who are easily convinced with popular labels & empty phrases or those clinging on to (official) authorities for explanations as they were raised/taught to do
you can't say he was hired to do it because no one is willing to die for a lie
are you kidding? how many millions of soldiers/civilians have died blindly (or through indoctrination) following some delusional ideologies (ie. lies) in conflicts/wars all over the world in just about every era of human existence?
the group from which so many of today's radical Islamic sects – including Hamas and even al-Qaeda – have sprung.
misinterpretation? if these militant members thought their previous organization(s) was sufficient they would have stayed there, but it was obviously too moderate so they left and joined/created/co-created (were recruited into,...) more aggressive ones
so the US government is funding al-Qaeda fighters in Iraq & Afghanistan to kill American soldiers and make the rest of them handicapped and disabled, thanks for the info
umm, that was already mentioned a few times before
so how many zeros can we count to total the number of the conspirators?
depends how you define 'conspirator', every lower level (of power) has less knowledge/insight (+horizontal compartmentalization), the lowest ones don't even have a clue - the majority just do their job, ie. what their superiors demand/order/assign without asking (too many) questions
no hard evidence = conspiracy nonsense imo.
the real 'hard' evidence is mostly in the hands of official investigators (and they were really quick to dispose of it far away from the scene), but when events are blamed on patsies there is no hard evidence against them, just that which was artificially set-up to point at them (or circumstantial or interpreted in such way), furthermore if by 'hard evidence' you mean fi. intact documents/dna 'found' at the scene after the planes got thoroughly incinerated and buried under tons of rubble, then i'm afraid no inconsistency might be big enough to raise suspicion anyways :P
Extraterrestrial
14.12.10, 20:39
generally, there is a tendency of using the term 'conspiracy (theory)' too lightly, waving it around like a banner, as if the mere mentioning should be sufficient to discard all evidence/investigation related to it (or labeled to be as such), but naturally this will only satisfy those who are easily convinced with popular labels & empty phrases or those clinging on to (official) authorities for explanations as they were raised/taught to do
Generally speaking, it's good to be skeptical and (Not) to take every official explanation for granted but on the other hand, there is a growing cult going the wrong way from being skeptical to paranoid with little or no information on the subject/issue they're dealing with.
are you kidding? how many millions of soldiers/civilians have died blindly (or through indoctrination) following some delusional ideologies (ie. lies) in conflicts/wars all over the world in just about every era of human existence?
True, but the people responsible of brainwashing the executer of this failed attempt assassination weren't the government, you can blame the brotherhood of brainwashing him with these delusional ideologies.
misinterpretation? if these militant members thought their previous organization(s) was sufficient they would have stayed there, but it was obviously too moderate so they left and joined/created/co-created (were recruited into,...) more aggressive ones
Hamas is part of the international Muslim brotherhood organization and isn't a different institution.
Hamas was founded as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1987
Btw, you have the wrong idea of the brotherhood, their ideas don't differ from those of Taliban regarding non-muslims/ women / individual freedom (persecuting everyone who don't share the same ideas/beliefs based on radical/salafist interpretation of islam)
the only difference between them and al-Qaeda is that they don't call for international jihad ( at least for now :tongue:) but they will shelter and fund them.
depends how you define 'conspirator', every lower level (of power) has less knowledge/insight (+horizontal compartmentalization), the lowest ones don't even have a clue - the majority just do their job, ie. what their superiors demand/order/assign without asking (too many) questions
Even with your definition of a "conspirator", you'll still need to find a way to keep secrets between at least 1000 conspirator since the big faces are regularly changed/replaced through elections ...
the real 'hard' evidence is mostly in the hands of official investigators (and they were really quick to dispose of it far away from the scene), but when events are blamed on patsies there is no hard evidence against them, just that which was artificially set-up to point at them (or circumstantial or interpreted in such way), furthermore if by 'hard evidence' you mean fi. intact documents/dna 'found' at the scene after the planes got thoroughly incinerated and buried under tons of rubble, then i'm afraid no inconsistency might be big enough to raise suspicion anyways
Afaik, it took them almost a year to clean up ground zero, i wouldn't call that "really quick".
oh, i forgot to add the "official investigators" to the list of "conspirators" ;)
@Extraterrestrial:
on the other hand, there is a growing cult going the wrong way from being skeptical to paranoid with little or no information on the subject/issue they're dealing with.
this phenomenon wouldn't even be so visible if the info was easily available & transparent in the first place - there is also a growing 'cult' of 'debunkers' who feel a certain need (some get paid for it) to recycle official stories or add disinfo in an attempt to bring down the aforementioned 'cult' or at least to confuse the issue
the people responsible of brainwashing the executer of this failed attempt assassination weren't the government, you can blame the brotherhood of brainwashing him with these delusional ideologies.
who knows what/who might be the one to blame for that, it might range from a conspiratorial operation to individual subconscious need to be indoctrinated into something, and/or a combination of these
since the big faces are regularly changed/replaced through elections ...
and where do they go? back into the fold (leading positions at multinational companies, advisers,...), changing roles only in terms of public appearance, getting ample bonuses for their previous actions that benefited these organizations - as for the new 'big faces' they continue the same kind of politics, perhaps slightly different in short-term effects but much less different regarding long-term ones - its the reason why people get the feeling that nothing really changes significantly as time (and politicians) go by, what they get is lots of hype per crumb of change (and thats if it is even aimed 'for the better' at all)
Afaik, it took them almost a year to clean up ground zero, i won't call that "really quick".
oh, i forgot to add the "official investigators" to the list of "conspirators"
that which was incriminating disappeared quick enough - since it was an 'inside-job' it wouldn't be too wise to have leaks among official investigators now would it (which still doesn't really say how many of them were infiltrated agents or people with an agenda or people with non-disclosure contracts) and finally there is the horizontal compartmentalization to limit exposure as well
Extraterrestrial
14.12.10, 22:29
there is also a growing 'cult' of 'debunkers' who feel a certain need (some get paid for it) to recycle official stories or add disinfo in an attempt to bring down the aforementioned 'cult' or at least to confuse the issue
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
and where do they go? back into the fold (leading positions at multinational companies, advisers,...), changing roles only in terms of public appearance, getting ample bonuses for their previous actions that benefited these organizations
This is called "political corruption" and it differs from one country to another.
as for the new 'big faces' they continue the same kind of politics, perhaps slightly different in short-term effects but much less different regarding long-term ones - its the reason why people get the feeling that nothing really changes significantly as time (and politicians) go by, what they get is lots of hype per crumb of change (and thats if it is even aimed 'for the better' at all)
still no signs of how do they keep these secrets among large numbers of conspirators from different countries/institutions.
that which was incriminating disappeared quick enough - since it was an 'inside-job' it wouldn't be too wise to have leaks among official investigators now would it (which still doesn't really say how many of them were infiltrated agents or people with an agenda or people with non-disclosure contracts) and finally there is the horizontal compartmentalization to limit exposure as well
no evidence = conspiracy theorists fantasies.
@Extraterrestrial:
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
would you say that by pressing the power button on your computer it results solely with an 'equal and opposite reaction'? :P
This is called "political corruption" and it differs from one country to another.
only in appearance, not in essence
still no signs of how do they keep these secrets
money, power, control, to name just a few (some other ways have already been mentioned), but since the system isn't perfect leakage always occurs so there are ways to reduce the possible damage/impact, sometimes it happens intentionally, to show their superiority (or as a 'timeless manifesto' kind of thing)
no evidence = conspiracy theorists fantasies.
you might be surprised at how many fantasies are currently officially maintained - those are a bit more sinister/powerful/far-reaching than those you keep labeling so lightly with obvious bias
remember that brochure link a few posts ago, those fi. are no fantasies, its scientifically backed-up from experts in the field (those that are not afraid or indifferent to asking questions) and no amount of political sweet-talk would rise up against (or stand-up to) proper research in any decent society
Extraterrestrial
15.12.10, 01:43
would you say that by pressing the power button on your computer it results solely with an 'equal and opposite reaction'?
Nah, I'd say by examining these conspiracies and separating fact from fiction it results with an " equal and opposite reaction".
money, power, control, to name just a few (some other ways have already been mentioned), but since the system isn't perfect leakage always occurs so there are ways to reduce the possible damage/impact, sometimes it happens intentionally, to show their superiority (or as a 'timeless manifesto' kind of thing)
eh! I'm asking you about the mechanism by which these "conspirators" keep these secrets hidden from both newly added members to the system/the big conspiracy?
keep in mind that by today most of yesterday's conspirators are off-duty and replaced by newly elected/appointed members, we aren't talking about dictators ruling for decades?
you might be surprised at how many fantasies are currently officially maintained - those are a bit more sinister/powerful/far-reaching than those you keep labeling so lightly with obvious bias
You claimed the following to be true:
that which was incriminating disappeared quick enough
and
(which still doesn't really say how many of them were infiltrated agents or people with an agenda or people with non-disclosure contracts)
where's the evidence behind these claims? you either have one or you're fabricating those claims by your fancy words.
remember that brochure link a few posts ago, those fi. are no fantasies, its scientifically backed-up from experts in the field (those that are not afraid or indifferent to asking questions) and no amount of political sweet-talk would rise up against (or stand-up to) proper research in any decent society
I'm not a psychologist but a lot of these people are attention whores & like to be seen repeatedly (Alex Jones is a perfect example) serving their political & commercial endeavors.
The industry of conspiracy books & videos & websites has gained huge amounts of money and popularity by exploiting people's need to believe in earthly demons (something to blame for the misery in their life) aka the elite who have nothing to do with their life except for daily conspiring/controlling major events in each country, this cult serves the conspiracy theorists ( money & fame)/ the crowd "meaning and having to know what's been hidden ( forbidden knowledge)". With their earthly fabricated demons and gods, they're recruiting new believers to evangelize their newly discovered conspiracy-hidden truth-cover up-inside job by disturbing brochures/videos, wearing t-shirts and parading in major cities and have already created their own vocabulary for the purpose of demonizing their opponents as government agents, disinfo agent,...etc.
This is my own conspiracy of the conspiracy theorists, money/power/control/fame :tongue:
Btw, their claims have been repeatedly debunked through the investigation led by a group of the most professional scientists/experts in the US but they'll always refuse it because keeping the myth alive means keeping the industry rolling.
@Extraterrestrial:
I'm asking you about the mechanism by which these "conspirators" keep these secrets hidden
see previous answers farther above
we aren't talking about dictators ruling for decades?
some of these organizations don't go back just decades but for hundreds of years, some even millennia!
where's the evidence behind these claims?
you don't expect proof for each and every statement now, do you :P
a lot of these people are attention whores & like to be seen repeatedly (Alex Jones is a perfect example)
true, jones also tends to exhibit psychotic attacks, sometimes spreading more panic than useful info
The industry of conspiracy books & videos & websites has gained huge amounts of money and popularity...serves the conspiracy theorists ( money & fame)
i wouldn't call it huge, its peanuts compared to their 'adversaries' (especially the original ones, less compared to the 'debunkers'), further they need to do something to have a decent life (fi. sell books/videos and/or 'ordinary jobs'), furthermore doing quality in-depth research has a tendency to demand most of their time & attention/dedication (ie. forget additional 'ordinary jobs')
by exploiting people's need to believe in earthly demons (something to blame for the misery in their life) aka the elite who have nothing to do with their life except for daily conspiring/controlling major events in each country,
you've got a good point there
though, the elite (mostly) didn't get their positions by being honorable/sincere/caring/moderate, its exploitation, collusion, corruption, greed and similar behavior that played a major role (some of them claim god-given birth-rights, bloodlines, ancestry as proof of superior status) - similar to any 'profession' they generally tend to stick together in order to keep (and extend) the balance of power in their favor, to some of them playing/toying with human lives is a favorite kind of sport/entertainment
Extraterrestrial
15.12.10, 17:01
some of these organizations don't go back just decades but for hundreds of years, some even millennia!
Great, I'd like to have a list of these organizations followed by names of their immortal conspirators, just to add them to my "list of conspirators".
you don't expect proof for each and every statement now, do you
No, i don't expect evidence for each statement but it's useful to point out that these claims are conspiracy theories and not a known facts.
i wouldn't call it huge, its peanuts compared to their 'adversaries' (especially the original ones, less compared to the 'debunkers'), further they need to do something to have a decent life (fi. sell books/videos and/or 'ordinary jobs'), furthermore doing quality in-depth research has a tendency to demand most of their time & attention/dedication (ie. forget additional 'ordinary jobs')
Their profits are huge compared to their fellow workers on this field and did you notice that compiling these conspiracies is much more (fun, profitable) than their ordinary jobs both in the long and short run?
though, the elite (mostly) didn't get their positions by being honorable/sincere/caring/moderate, its exploitation, collusion, corruption, greed and similar behavior that played a major role (some of them claim god-given birth-rights, bloodlines, ancestry as proof of superior status) - similar to any 'profession' they generally tend to stick together in order to keep (and extend) the balance of power in their favor, to some of them playing/toying with human lives is a favorite kind of sport/entertainment
Where is your evidence of their direct involvement in the "big conspiracy"?
@Extraterrestrial:
Great, I'd like to have a list of these organizations
fi. two well known ones with well established conspiratorial tendencies/character: (free)masons (supposedly dating back to egyptian times BC) & the catholic church (its core certainly goes well into BC era), one could count various royal families into this equation as well (even though their empires changed through time in name/territory as well as in appearance), not to mention other more secretive/hidden groups
but it's useful to point out that these claims are conspiracy theories and not a known facts.
the more one dwells into areas of low transparency or provability the harder it gets to substantially back-up some claims/opinions/views - even in purely scientific examinations one ends up with a number of (questionable) theories that from time to time get replaced or contested with other (new) ones, where certainty beyond doubt is something hard to establish (if possible at all)
Their profits are huge compared to their fellow workers on this field and did you notice that compiling these conspiracies is much more (fun, profitable) than their ordinary jobs
now i could ask you the same, to prove it (at least in one decent/believable example) ;)
shouldn't it be desirable for one's job/work/hobby/exploration to be fun/thrilling/enjoyable/profitable, fulfilling one's existential needs & those one is interested in?
Where is your evidence of their direct involvement in the "big conspiracy"?
first you'll have to define the 'big conspiracy' (as this is quite a vague term) and show where i mentioned someone (directly) involved in it :P
Extraterrestrial
16.12.10, 02:56
fi. two well known ones with well established conspiratorial tendencies/character: (free)masons (supposedly dating back to egyptian times BC) & the catholic church (its core certainly goes well into BC era), one could count various royal families into this equation as well (even though their empires changed through time in name/territory as well as in appearance), not to mention other more secretive/hidden groups
Not sufficient, I said followed by names of their immortal conspirators, if possible a list of conspiracies they're involved in, evidence of their involvement and relevance of these organizations to what we're dealing with now.
the more one dwells into areas of low transparency or provability the harder it gets to substantially back-up some claims/opinions/views - even in purely scientific examinations one ends up with a number of (questionable) theories that from time to time get replaced or contested with other (new) ones, where certainty beyond doubt is something hard to establish (if possible at all)
so in conclusion you don't have any evidence at all and yet you assert those claims with your fancy words and say that i'm biased!
now i could ask you the same, to prove it (at least in one decent/believable example)
The Economics of Conspiracy Theories
But there is more to conspiracy theories than mass psychology. It is also big business. Voluntary associations such as the Ku Klux Klan and the John Birch Society are past their heyday. But they still gross many millions of dollars a year.
The monthly "Fortean Times" is the leading brand in "strange phenomena and experiences, curiosities, prodigies and portents". It is widely available on both sides of the Atlantic. In its 29 years of existence it has covered the bizarre, the macabre, and the ominous with panache and open-mindedness.
"Conspiracy theories certainly are sexy at the moment ... I've been contacted by five or six TV companies in the past six months - two last week - all interested in making programmes about conspiracy theories. I even got a call from the Big Breakfast Show, from a researcher who had no idea who I was, asking me if I'd like to appear on it ... These days we've got conspiracy theories everywhere; and about almost everything."
But these two publications are the tip of a gigantic and ever-growing iceberg. "Fortean Times" reviews, month in and month out, books, PC games, movies, and software concerned with its subject matter. There is an average of 8 items per issue with a median price of $20 per item.
There are more than 186,600 Web sites dedicated to conspiracy theories in Google's database of 3 billion pages. The "conspiracy theories" category in the Open Directory Project, a Web directory edited by volunteers, contains hundreds of entries.
There are 1077 titles about conspiracies listed in Amazon and another 12078 in its individually-operated ZShops. A new (1996) edition of the century-old anti-Semitic propaganda pamphlet faked by the Czarist secret service, "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion", is available through Amazon. Its sales rank is a respectable 64,000 - out of more than 2 million titles stocked by the online bookseller.
the full article is here:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977393718
apply this to the 911 conspiracy theories and you'll get the full picture, self made documentaries selling millions of DVDs, books, websites, magazines....etc.
shouldn't it be desirable for one's job/work/hobby/exploration to be fun/thrilling/enjoyable/profitable, fulfilling one's existential needs & those one is interested in?
hell ya especially if i can get more of the green stuff from it, i'd drop out of college/ordinary boring job and devote myself completely to it.
first you'll have to define the 'big conspiracy' (as this is quite a vague term) and show where i mentioned someone (directly) involved in it
I don't have to do that since i don't believe in the "big conspiracy", you're the one required to define it, state names and show us evidence of their direct involvement on it rather than saying that they did it or the government did it.
@Extraterrestrial:
Not sufficient,...
phew...to quote another character: 'anything else you might be wantin'?'
and say that i'm biased!
i'm not the one whose virtually every other sentence either contains or implies the word 'conspiracy' :P
hell ya especially if i can get more of the green stuff from it, i'd drop out of college/ordinary boring job and devote myself completely to it.
well, if thats your/their choice, i have no problems with it, the same goes for people wanting to buy or promote (or profit from) such material - but if i find invalid bias, inconsistencies, suspicious claims and a lack of trustworthiness it'll be mentioned/criticized when a suitable occasion arrives - as in every field of human activity, the 'rubbish' far outweighs 'quality'
you're the one required to define it...rather than saying that they did it or the government did it.
you forgot one thing: you were the one who introduced the term 'big conspiracy', so its rather pointless that someone else attempts to define it without knowing exactly what is to be considered by it - as for the rest and my comments in general its all 'imo' (as expected) with a suitable level of explanations involved
@The Economics of Conspiracy Theories:
nice try, but lets put these things into perspective:
take best-selling book authors of mainstream vs. best-sellers from a conspiracy-related area: for recent books its around 20-80 million (see under 1.) copies vs. hundreds of thousands up to a million (marrs, icke,...), ie. somewhere around a 100-fold difference, for book-series or a career total the differences are even greater:
According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Christie is the best-selling writer of books of all time and, with William Shakespeare, the best-selling author of any kind. Only the Bible has sold more than her roughly four billion copies of novels
take china for example, a comparison between high-selling (recent) books, the difference is also around 100-fold:
Wolf Totem) Jiang Rong Chinese 2004 20 million[48]
China buy into conspiracy theory: best-selling book Currency Wars on Asia Crisis & Rothschild control of US
Tue, 25 Sep 2007
In a new Chinese best-seller, Currency Wars , these disparate events spanning two centuries have a single root cause: the control of money issuance through history by the Rothschild banking dynasty....The book´s publisher, a unit of the state-owned CITIC group, said Currency Wars had sold nearly 200,000 copies
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books
2. http://www.sott.net/articles/show/140695-China-buy-into-conspiracy-theory-best-selling-book-Currency-Wars-on-Asia-Crisis-Rothschild-control-of-US
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_Christie
in addition, one should consider that the mainstream is likewise populated with much more authors than other fields, has an officially sponsored promotional machinery behind it, isn't frowned upon as long as the themes remain within expected boundaries, brings larger profits/attention/recognition/audience and thus remains more desirable and socially safer/approved area to work in, whereas conspiracy-related work (and i'm not talking about fiction writers) is like walking on thin ice, the audience is much sharper, recycling is difficult, profits are much lower and it takes a lot of time/patience to dig through obscure material & connect the dots into a meaningful end-result, so its definitely not a 'walk in the park' kind of thing
There are more than 186,600 Web sites dedicated to conspiracy theories in Google's database of 3 billion pages.
There are 1077 titles about conspiracies listed in Amazon and another 12078 in its individually-operated ZShops.
the proper terminology would likely be related-to instead of dedicated-to and the number likely concerns the cumulative number of pages (not sites) - even so, if we consider 'conspiracy' to be a 'field of activity', 3 billion divided by 186,600 gives approximately 16,000 other fields, which shows how its not that big after all - the same can be said by comparing the number of related amazon books to their multi-million total number of books, this field is simply not mainstream (with a few exceptions) thus its logical to expect everything else other than 'huge' sales
furthermore, they did not differentiate 'debunker' sites, afaik they weren't even mentioned, also, notice the complete absence of any references in the article, a ridiculing tone of its contents, yet they had to admit that:
Yet, cinema and TV did more to propagate modern nightmares than all the books combined.
so we're back to the real big-business which again dwarfs all the traditional conspiracy-related researchers & their talk-shows, dvds & other profit-making video material with a single blockbuster movie, let alone their related catalogue
i'd say the misconception here is created by not differentiating between fiction authors (fi. dan brown) and 'researchers'/scholars (fi. david icke), the former are well represented within entertainment/publishing industry and the related products can achieve large profits, whereas the latter are located within non-mainstream, with all its connotations
Extraterrestrial
16.12.10, 20:02
phew...to quote another character: 'anything else you might be wantin'?'
i'm not the one whose virtually every other sentence either contains or implies the word 'conspiracy'
you forgot one thing: you were the one who introduced the term 'big conspiracy', so its rather pointless that someone else attempts to define it without knowing exactly what is to be considered by it - as for the rest and my comments in general its all 'imo' (as expected) with a suitable level of explanations involved
I'm starting to get bored as i don't see we're getting anywhere from this debate since you're determined not to define your terms, provide names and evidence.
take best-selling book authors of mainstream vs. best-sellers from a conspiracy-related area: for recent books its around 20-80 million (see under 1.) copies vs. hundreds of thousands up to a million (marrs, icke,...), ie. somewhere around a 100-fold difference, for book-series or a career total the differences are even greater:
According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Christie is the best-selling writer of books of all time and, with William Shakespeare, the best-selling author of any kind. Only the Bible has sold more than her roughly four billion copies of novels
Are you kidding?
you're comparing literature to political books!
Compare it to the same-genre, take for example the The Da Vinci Code novel:
The book is a worldwide bestseller that sold 80 million copies as of 2009[update][1] and has been translated into 44 languages. This makes it, as of 2010, the best selling English language novel of the 21st century and the 2nd biggest selling novel of the 21st century in any language. Combining the detective, thriller, and conspiracy fiction genres, it is Brown's second novel to include the character Robert Langdon, the first being his 2000 novel Angels & Demons. In November 2004, Random House published a Special Illustrated Edition with 160 illustrations. In 2006, a film adaptation was released by Sony's Columbia Pictures.
take china for example, a comparison between high-selling (recent) books, the difference is also around 100-fold:
China?
Not related to our subject but anyway, notice that Wolf Totem is a novel:
Wolf Totem is narrated by protagonist Chen Zhen, a young man in his 20s who, like the author, left his native Beijing to work in Inner Mongolia during the cultural revolution.[3] Through descriptions of folk traditions, rituals, and life on the steppe, Wolf Totem compares the culture of the ethnic Mongolian nomads and the Han Chinese farmers who settle in their territory, praising the "freedom, independence, respect, unyielding before hardship, teamwork and competition" of the former and criticising the "autocratic, sheeplike" nature of the latter.[1] The book condemns the agricultural collectivisation imposed on the nomads by the settlers, and the ecological disasters it caused, and ends with a 60-page "call to action" disconnected from the main thread of the novel. The author states that he was inspired to begin writing Wolf Totem by an accident: he ignored the advice of the clan chief of the group of nomads with whom he was staying, and accidentally stumbled across a pack of wolves. Terrified, he watched as the wolves chased a herd of sheep off a cliff, then dragged their corpses into a cave. From then on, fascinated by the wolves, he began to study them and their relationship with the nomads more closely, and even attempted to domesticate one
while the Currency Wars on Asia Crisis & Rothschild control of US is fulled of conspiracy related information i suppose and yet sold 200,000 copies, with an estimated 400,000 extra pirated copies, i'm surprised.
in addition, one should consider that the mainstream is likewise populated with much more authors than other fields, has an officially sponsored promotional machinery behind it, isn't frowned upon as long as the themes remain within expected boundaries, brings larger profits/attention/recognition/audience and thus remains more desirable and socially safer/approved area to work in, whereas conspiracy-related work (and i'm not talking about fiction writers) is like walking on thin ice, the audience is much sharper, recycling is difficult, profits are much lower and it takes a lot of time/patience to dig through obscure material & connect the dots into a meaningful end-result, so its definitely not a 'walk in the park' kind of thing
the proper terminology would likely be related-to instead of dedicated-to and the number likely concerns the cumulative number of pages (not sites) - even so, if we consider 'conspiracy' to be a 'field of activity', 3 billion divided by 186,600 gives approximately 16,000 other fields, which shows how its not that big after all - the same can be said by comparing the number of related amazon books to their multi-million total number of books, this field is simply not mainstream (with a few exceptions) thus its logical to expect everything else other than 'huge' sales
again, you're comparing conspiracy theories related business to other fields which have nothing to do with politics but rather entertainment...
compare it to their fellow workers in the same field and you'll see how much it's big, you don't have to be a skilled writer nor an expert in your field but rather a researcher whose sources are usually urban myths playing on the public fears and ignorance, misinterpreting major political events, revolving around lies & misquotations, distorting history, twisting science to serve his purpose usually smth similar to voodoo and benefiting from the process through selling million of copies of self made documentaries, DVDs , books , TV shows ...etc.
so we're back to the real big-business which again dwarfs all the traditional conspiracy-related researchers & their talk-shows, dvds & other profit-making video material with a single blockbuster movie, let alone their related catalogue
Don't you think that these movies gave them more advertising and publicity more than they ever dreamed of?
Btw, if you want to end this debate here, it's ok as i don't see we aren't getting anyway near an agreement.
tokiodrift1
16.12.10, 22:59
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@Extraterrestrial:
you're comparing literature to political books!
Compare it to the same-genre, take for example the The Da Vinci Code novel:
actually, i did that, one more than one occasion - dan brown's book is more of a cross-genre so you can compare it either way, but one has to realize the difference between mainstream and non-mainstream when viewing profit distribution, lumping big-business & independent research into one basket is causing erroneous views on the subject
btw. political books are a part of literature
while the Currency Wars on Asia Crisis & Rothschild control of US is fulled of conspiracy related information i suppose and yet sold 200,000 copies, with an estimated 400,000 extra pirated copies, i'm surprised.
which shows what numbers can be achieved with hype-aided sales, still its far from the usual best-sellers, not to mention an exception within thematically related material
again, you're comparing conspiracy theories related business to other fields which have nothing to do with politics but rather entertainment...
even purely political books (again, not quite the same genre) aren't really part of the mainstream (they have their moments of increased reader interest mostly in times of (global) crises when they manage to reach greater sales) - as expected, the situation is similar here as well, where only well-known typical conspiracy-related writers barely enter the best-seller list (1-15):
14. The Trillion-Dollar Conspiracy, by Jim Marrs. (Morrow, $26.99.) Author of “The Rise Of The Fourth Reich” proposes that America’s current social and economic maladies were engineered.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/07/august-poli-books-best-seller-list/
you don't have to be a skilled writer nor an expert in your field but rather a researcher whose sources are usually urban myths
thats the popular view, usually spread by people who didn't actually read any decent related material (ie. have no relevant knowledge concerning it) or by propaganda distributors (to discourage possible interest in it) or by populists (who parrot what the public wants to hear or thinks it knows/understands) or by those with vested interests - furthermore, writing itself isn't exactly easy or something anyone would be able to accomplish with a respectable quality of the written material, not to mention maintaining it over multiple books
playing on the public fears and ignorance, misinterpreting major political events, revolving around lies & misquotations, distorting history, twisting science to serve his purpose usually smth similar to voodoo and benefiting from the process through selling million of
interestingly enough, this is exactly what politicians/governments/intelligence/big-business do on a daily basis
Don't you think that these movies gave them more advertising and publicity more than they ever dreamed of?
the entertainment industry will use every available topic/theme if it can profit from it and/or influence the consumers - every author is free to decide how to deal with it, fi. whether he will become a sell-out or remain true to original/early self-imposed standards (ie. reader expectations)
Btw, if you want to end this debate here, it's ok as i don't see we aren't getting anyway near an agreement.
it was never my intention to reach an agreement, but rather to address some issues, present some opinions, challenge other ones, learn something from it, use some fancy words ;) , etc.
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