Strike while the iron is hot

[anon]

Today, we'd like to once again present the biggest problem for our coders' productivity. Currently, new mods are released as never before, even more than in the past at other boards. In addition, there are many other, unique ongoing projects of the highest quality. Until now this is all good, and for our mods' actual users, a whole advantage.

Almost half a year ago, we decided to disable the so-called "credit system", as it makes little sense to force someone to write something, only to then be able to download our mods. This method has gone outdated, so we removed it from our forum. Since then, the downloads amount has of course increased significantly, and the posts one slightly decreased.

But let's go back to our main problem. As it always happens, there are people who are jealous or simply envious of our great work, and simply want to hurt us and take the biggest slice of the pie. That's of course understandable, as we can with a little pride say we are the worldwide #1 board with such an unique, straightforward offer.

We have many times used the time where we'd usually meet up with our friends, or earn money, to invest it in this forum. SB-Innovation has become somewhat more developed, which is increasingly time-consuming. Every new project requires hundreds of hours of work, but we take the needed time and patience for new inventions. We do this for you, not for us.

There is a site (whose name is irrelevant) which doesn't respect our work, mocks us, and releases our products as theirs. Of course this fact alone doesn't matter to us, partly because we're not at such a low level - we simply don't need it. However, his page only exists to monetarily profit from our work, so it's our exact opposite.

In recent weeks we have had a huge decline in our amount of visitors, which makes us lack the advertising revenue we urgently need to pay our server. Also, our public image risks getting damaged if copies of our programs going by different names, to the point of being unrecognizable, keep on appearing and circulating around the net. (Although this somehow flatters us, as it'd mean our work is so good that attempting to copy it is the only alternative.)

The people behind this site effectively don't seem to know what they're doing. Without us there would be no new mods, without new mods there would be no money, and without money they'd have to either close the site or post only bad 0-day tools and other unneeded things.

Given this situation, it won't be long until we take the first steps against mod stealing. Maybe we'll have to stop releasing mods forever (at least for the public sector), or close registration and switch to an "invite only" system.

Reality is, in that case we'd be certainly taking a step backwards, which we can't accept. This article is only to inform our users, and everyone else that's interested, about our situation, and possible changes to our site to stop the mod stealing.

On this note, have a nice weekend and think about what many of you take for granted but what actually isn't.

The SB-Innovation Team

[anon]

The fact you allow every random member to get in sb-i and register is the reason why you need money for your server. If sb-i would have a much smaller user-base of selected members based on their cheating-experience and knowledge, you would have a much smaller userbase and much less bandwidth needed.

By keeping the board public you will never be able to stop seba or anyone else from stealing your mods.

By keeping it private even less people would see the ads used to financially support the server. There'd be less bandwidth usage - and also less money to pay the chunk that's used with.

About spam ... a smaller userbase means an easier job to stop spam. And to be honest ... even with the large userbase as it is spam is rather easy to fight. Just enforce the anti-spam rules in a rigid manner and spam will stop after some time. You could even create an additional staff-position specifically aimed at stopping spam.

That's what we're doing right now. Spamming can only decrease but it'll never stop because there are people that simply don't read the rules, or think flashing X posts is the best way to see what's behind hidden content blocks - again, perhaps you saw, or not, what happened with PrE? Spamming would persist even with the post limit set to 10. Is it that hard to get 10 posts without spamming? Just reply to some of the threads in the Inquire Around section.

As i said a login system can be cracked indeed, but a smaller base combined with a decent auth-system gets you on track. The leakse will be far more easier to catch in that case.

What number would a "smaller base" be?

If we make the site invite-only and hard to get in, people will resort to seba or any other mod leaker (should they manage to leak the mods), and with good reason - they'll be giving people the mods they otherwise can't get their hands on, and the wheel of newbies faking at mB/s and tracker admins updating their scripts would keep on spinning.

You are absolutely right, but mod-stealing has been going on for as long as cheater-mods exist. Even sb-i has been guilty in the past for doing so. For a while now you are indeed not doing it anymore and have a healthy ethical policy, and that's why this mod stealing is becoming a much bigger issue. As a said earlier ... it's the support and the quality of your board that will get people to get their mods here and not at seba's or elswhere.

With the open-door policy sb-i has now you will never be able to stop the stealing.

...

Yes, that's correct - we now have a strict policy of not posting any mod/tool without the coder's permission.

Regarding support and quality - didn't I talk about that before? You actually get support here, unlike at seba's blog.

Yes you are, but look at the core of sb-i ... it's always the same people posting. Most posts are n00b-questions, some random news items and some trivial issues. If you would close your doors and keep the core members and keep focus on the quality of the board your member-base will become much tighter and people will become loyal to this board, even if they are cheating.

I don't agree. Maybe there are "noob" (nobody knows everything) questions, but if new releases, invite trading, news/discussion threads, software, hardware and network posts and jokes/funny pics and clips are "trivial issues"...

Now, if we "closed our doors"... that would be always the same people posting.

[CindyVer]

That's what we're doing right now. Spamming can only decrease but it'll never stop because there are people that simply don't read the rules, or think flashing X posts is the best way to see what's behind hidden content blocks -

With a smaller but dedicated user-base there would be no need for the use of the 'hidden-blocks'. And about spamming ... be strict. If you ban repeated spammers, people will eventually stop doing it.

Regarding support and quality - didn't I talk about that before? You actually get support here, unlike at seba's blog.

Yes you did and we agree on that. It's what separates sb-i from blogs like seba's, and smart people know that. It's only the 'bad' apples that don't care for support or the work that the original coder is doing, but those are the members that shouldn't be on sb-i.

I don't agree. Maybe there are "noob" (nobody knows everything) questions, but if new releases, invite trading, news/discussion threads, software, hardware and network posts and jokes/funny pics and clips are "trivial issues"...

Invite trading on cheater-boards is a very big risk and shouldn't take place here. Trading amongst non-cheaters is already tricky and risky. But trading with cheaters is much more dangerous. And I'm not even speaking about tracker-admins that chase us pretending to be traders.

Trivial maybe was a bad choice of words. I was referring to posts that are made with the single purpose to get more posts.

By keeping it private even less people would see the ads used to financially support the server. There'd be less bandwidth usage - and also less money to pay the chunk that's used with.

I know what it costs to host a board, and with a limited userbase, a board like this isn't that expensive, believe me.

What number would a "smaller base" be?

It's not me who decides, but sb-i staff should be able to judge who is a contributing member and who isn't. It might be 100 or 500, but I believe the number would be closer to 100 than 500.
If after some time youo see the activity on the board slows down, you can hand out invites to people you believe would fit in here.

Now, if we "closed our doors"... that would be always the same people posting.

Yes, but why would that be a bad thing. It's one of your only chances to prevent mod-stealing (except for the implementation of a 100% hack-proof auth-system, but that's almost impossible).

[Rebound]

You talk every time about a smaller userbase. You would prefer an invite system for our board? Of course this is possible and it's a possible solution. But we want give every user the chance to get access to our mods. That's the reason why we release our mods without restrictions or something. The most users are very nice and they are no stealers. It wouldn't a good idea to close our forum or restrict the mods only because a few users steal our mods... It's unfair compared to other members.

SB-Innovation stands for highest quality, best mods and best support of the world wide web. Every user knows that, that's enough for us.

best regards

Rebound

[czullo]

Its simple guys, there is one way if you don't want to your mods to be stolen by seba and others - close forum and give access only for trusted persons, in other case your mods will be always stolen by seba. there is no other way.

[CindyVer]

Yes I talk about a smaller userbase, because this thread was created to talk about ways to prevent your mods being stolen by others. Add to that the fact I am convinced public access of cheater-mods is not right and has more negative than positive consequences. Cheating was never intended to be done by inexperienced BT users, but that's exactly what you have been doing, by making cheater mods publically accessible. That is just my personal view off course and I know sb-i doesn't share this pount of view.

By keeping this board public you will never be able to prevent thye mod-stealing. People can easily create 100 accounts here without limitation (given they use a different IP). And everyone has free access to the mods without anyone being able to check it.

I also said in this and other threads I believe the fact you are known or you appear first on the Google-search results, doesn't make a board the best when it comes to quality.
If it was that would mean that seba's blog would be the 'best' in case it would appear in first place in the Google search, and it would not be correct.

I believe reducing sb-i's userbase and limiting access would cause many people go over to seba's place to get your mods and he would get a lot more people visiting his blog.
BUT, as time goes, you will be able to keep the dedicated sb-i members and be able to weed out the bad apples and stealers. When you get to the point seba can't get his hands on the sb-i' mods, that's when his downfall will start and people will come to know sb-i as a board where exclusive mods are being made, and it is the place to be. At that time you could easily start allowing new members little by little, so you could still have an overview on possible leakers.

I am just suggesting what I think would be a solution for the problem at hand.

[anon]

about spamming ... be strict. If you ban repeated spammers, people will eventually stop doing it.

That's our current policy.

Yes you did and we agree on that. It's what separates sb-i from blogs like seba's, and smart people know that. It's only the 'bad' apples that don't care for support or the work that the original coder is doing, but those are the members that shouldn't be on sb-i.

You're right.

Yes, but why would that be a bad thing.

Because what's the sense of having a board an online community if we'll always be chatting or posting with/for the same members? It's also about letting new members in and share what they have with us.

...
I also said in this and other threads I believe the fact you are known or you appear first on the Google-search results, doesn't make a board the best when it comes to quality.
If it was that would mean that seba's blog would be the 'best' in case it would appear in first place in the Google search, and it would not be correct.

Yes, that's right - being first on Google doesn't make a site good by itself. We're a quality board because of the great mods and hard work put on it, regardless of whether we are first (like with "azureus extreme mod") or beyond the 25th result page.

Its simple guys, there is one way if you don't want to your mods to be stolen by seba and others - close forum and give access only for trusted persons, in other case your mods will be always stolen by seba. there is no other way.

Rebound has already mentioned why we're not doing that at the moment. We'd be braking down access to our mods to a lot of people just because of some fucking mod stealers.

[czullo]

so you must guys agree with that that your mods will be stolen all time.

[anon]

We don't want the mods to be leaked, but we also don't want to prevent a lot of good users from having access to them just because of a handful of leakers.

[CindyVer]

We don't want the mods to be leaked, but we also don't want to prevent a lot of good users from having access to them just because of a handful of leakers.

Noble intentions, but I don't think you can achieve both.

Ultimately you will have to go for the 'lesser evil'

[Aurion]

Lesser evil which means after all blocking a large portion of new users who might be in great need of buffering their accounts since they're facing real hard times getting their ratios stable in all trackers with their normal home connections.So after all,you are doing more harm than good!

[CindyVer]

Lesser evil which means after all blocking a large portion of new users who might be in great need of buffering their accounts since they're facing real hard times getting their ratios stable in all trackers with their normal home connections.So after all,you are doing more harm than good!

I didn' say what has to be chosen. Sb-i either lives with the mod-theft, or closes it's doors. I don't say one is better than the other, but one choice excludes another.

You said closing would do more harm than good. That depends from what point of view ... for the cheaters it would be a bad thing, for the trackers it would be a good thing to have less cheaters. The more people cheating, the lower the speeds on the trackers.

Anyway, it is something sb-i staff will have to figure out and it won't be an easy decision

[slikrapid]

I didn' say what has to be chosen. Sb-i either lives with the mod-theft, or closes it's doors. I don't say one is better than the other, but one choice excludes another.

Mod theft can't really be stopped just by closing sb-i doors, examples:

1. s*** probably already has several accounts here, since this is his primary source of mods and that means he is in after closing and has access

2. invite system won't work because anyone who has something interesting to offer will get inside eventually

3. anyone who is inside can post the mods on some blog/forum/RS to help others who can't get in

4. smaller user base won't pay for the server costs

5. imposing restrictions goes against the 'free to all' principle

only thing thats left is to protect the code so it can't be unpacked and manipulated + modify the protection after every mod update, s*** maybe isn't skilled in programming but he could have friends that are


maybe the best way to let people know where the quality mods are really from is to advertise this site as much as possible - make an official statement about this site and post it on different forums/blogs... maybe arrange it to be a 'sticky' with mods; spread the word so to speak and also warn users about impostors who give no support and profit from stealing

The more people cheating, the lower the speeds on the trackers.

people with high upload speeds don't have to bother with cheating only to risk their account so speeds won't suffer much

[CindyVer]

Mod theft can't really be stopped just by closing sb-i doors, examples:

1. s*** probably already has several accounts here, since this is his primary source of mods and that means he is in after closing and has access

He probably has indeed, but with a small userbase it is much easier to take measures to catch the person who leaks the mods.

2. invite system won't work because anyone who has something interesting to offer will get inside eventually

Same as n° 1 and if sb-i codes their own mods they don't really need something interesting. Posting mods here that were coded by others and that are spread all over the internet don't bring any value to the board.

3. anyone who is inside can post the mods on some blog/forum/RS to help others who can't get in

Same as n° 1. Yes they could, but they would be caught much easier and faster if you have a limited number of members accessing the mods.

4. smaller user base won't pay for the server costs

When getting a smaller user-base, server-costs will be less.

5. imposing restrictions goes against the 'free to all' principle

I am not for the 'free for all' principle, it has been done before (cfr. USSR), and has proven not to work, due to human nature.
With that principle (I already explained that) cheating becomes available to the beginning-torrenter, they get caught and tracker-admins realise the extent of the cheater problem and get better scripts and protection against cheaters.

only thing thats left is to protect the code so it can't be unpacked and manipulated + modify the protection after every mod update, s*** maybe isn't skilled in programming but he could have friends that are

Everything can be hacked! Shu mod is the perfect example, and there are many more.

maybe the best way to let people know where the quality mods are really from is to advertise this site as much as possible - make an official statement about this site and post it on different forums/blogs... maybe arrange it to be a 'sticky' with mods; spread the word so to speak and also warn users about impostors who give no support and profit from stealing

Where exactly would you advertise? Invite-boards? Tracker-forums? Other cheater communities? I don't see that happening very soon

people with high upload speeds don't have to bother with cheating only to risk their account so speeds won't suffer much

That's rather short-minded and may be true for the popular and newer torrents, but the more people cheating the faster a torrent dies. And will result in a lesser number of seeders on unpopular torrents, and lesser speeds. The ones with the high speed uploads will have seeded enough and stop seeding, the cheaters will also stop seeding, based on their fake-ratio, and the only ones remaining will be the members with crappy upload speeds. Result: dead torrents, or very slow speeds.

There are a few examples on the internet of cheater-boards that have a small userbase, that are still very active and that have succeeded in stopping mod-theft completely. These boards are closed and membership isn't public, most people haven't even heared of them. The big part of the cheaters don't have access to those mods, that's true, but the people with the skills and the experience use it every day.

They are satisfied with using mods that were created by house coders and new members are hand picked from time to time, to avoid mod theft and to be able to spot eventual leaks right away. I can only say that it works up till now since these mods are nowhere to be found on the web, except on those closed boards.

[shoulder]

Same as n° 1 and if sb-i codes their own mods they don't really need something interesting. Posting mods here that were coded by others and that are spread all over the internet don't bring any value to the board.

I think he meant something else.
For example Invite Trading, like TS Invite for a SB-I Invite.

Also, we're on a system to prevent stealing of the eXtreme Mod, be curious.

[anon]

That's rather short-minded and may be true for the popular and newer torrents, but the more people cheating the faster a torrent dies. And will result in a lesser number of seeders on unpopular torrents, and lesser speeds. The ones with the high speed uploads will have seeded enough and stop seeding, the cheaters will also stop seeding, based on their fake-ratio, and the only ones remaining will be the members with crappy upload speeds. Result: dead torrents, or very slow speeds.

That's not always true. Have a look at ScT and its seedboxes that can open dozens of slots and upload at extremely high speeds - cheating there won't slow down speeds for anyone, and it's hard to survive honestly.