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Thread: The Most Amazing Number

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    Renk's Avatar
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    The Most Amazing Number

    You surely already know Pi, e, the golden ratio... each of them having weird and marvelous mathematical properties.

    But this one is the most amazing of all. It really deserves to be considered as the first of all numbers:



    Last edited by Renk; 10.02.19 at 22:33.
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  2. Who Said Thanks:

    anon (12.02.19) , slikrapid (12.02.19)

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    anon (12.02.19)

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    Quote Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wau_(letter)
    Digamma/wau remained in use in the system of Greek numerals attributed to Miletus, where it stood for the number 6, reflecting its original place in the sequence of the alphabet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Renk
    But this one is the most amazing of all. It really deserves to be considered as the first of all numbers:
    seems all other numbers can be derived from that one, using various mathematical operations


    Parable of the Two Birds

    Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him...

    ...@ en.wikipedia.org Paramatman

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    anon (12.02.19)

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    Moderator anon's Avatar
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    Joke or not, I'd never heard of it before, whereas my pewblic skool edekasion at least taught me that 0.999... = 1
    "Come visit sometime, okay? We'll always be here for you. We... we all love you."
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    if we wanted to be precise, 0.999... can never reach 1, not even in infinity

    so one could write: 0.999...≈1 or 0.999...≐1


    Parable of the Two Birds

    Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him...

    ...@ en.wikipedia.org Paramatman

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  9. #6
    I'm pretty sure he was making a floating point joke
    g̺̗͙̺l̜̜i͖̦͇̙t͕̲̜c͇̮͕̺̩͎̰̜h͕̦̘
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    No joke here. If 1/9 = 0.111... then 9/9 = 0.999..., but of course, any number divided by itself yields 1, therefore 0.999... = 1. Or at least that's what my math teacher told me, and my mind was blown at the time, but eventually it made sense. The trick is realizing that 0.999... is just an alternate representation of 9/9 and not a different number.
    "Come visit sometime, okay? We'll always be here for you. We... we all love you."
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    Moderator anon's Avatar
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    4,195,835 / 3,145,727 = 1.333739068902037589

    There's a good floating point joke, one that cost millions of dollars.
    "Come visit sometime, okay? We'll always be here for you. We... we all love you."
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    Renk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slikrapid View Post
    if we wanted to be precise, 0.999... can never reach 1, not even in infinity

    so one could write: 0.999...≈1 or 0.999...≐1
    I tnink you are refering to a kind of "asymptote's phenomena": A curve never reaches it's asymptote. It's true, but the point is here that 0.9999...(infinite expansion) is the asymptote itself, or more precisely a coding of the asymptote (the number 1).

    Quote Originally Posted by anon View Post
    No joke here. If 1/9 = 0.111... then 9/9 = 0.999..., but of course, any number divided by itself yields 1, therefore 0.999... = 1. Or at least that's what my math teacher told me, and my mind was blown at the time, but eventually it made sense. The trick is realizing that 0.999... is just an alternate representation of 9/9 and not a different number.
    It's a pretty explanation. The sole point that remains: Is 0.1111111... x 9 really equals to 0.999999....? There are plenty of paradoxes when calculations involving an infinite number of terms are performed.
    Last edited by Renk; 14.02.19 at 12:49.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renk
    A curve never reaches it's asymptote. It's true, but the point is here that 0.9999...(infinite expansion) is the asymptote itself,
    thats contradictory, 0.999... doesn't magically become 1, there is a difference involved, even if an infinitely small difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Renk
    or more precisely a coding of the asymptote (the number 1).
    hence the approximation symbol

    Quote Originally Posted by anon
    If 1/9 = 0.111...
    admit it, you used a calculator with the '=' symbol

    Quote Originally Posted by anon
    Or at least that's what my math teacher told me,
    other math teachers would say to leave the fraction as is, if it cannot be further reduced, so you would have a nice, clean calculation like this:

    1/9*9=9/9=1

    Quote Originally Posted by Renk
    The sole point that remains: Is 0.1111111... x 9 really equals to 0.999999
    0.111...*9 does equal 0.999...
    but 0.111... does not equal 1/9, nor does 0.999... equal 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Renk
    There are plenty of paradoxes when calculations involving an infinite number of terms are performed.
    the paradox here is assuming the ability to do precise calculations involving imprecise infinite numbers - so you start with an error (erroneous assumption) and keep making errors, just like IRL


    Parable of the Two Birds

    Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him...

    ...@ en.wikipedia.org Paramatman

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    Quote Originally Posted by slikrapid View Post
    thats contradictory, 0.999... doesn't magically become 1, there is a difference involved, even if an infinitely small difference
    Mathematically it does: The "magic" here is the infinite. For every finite sequence of 9's, the number 0.999...999 is not egal to 1. But "0.999...." doesn't represents any finite sequence of 9. It represents (ie is a notation for) the limit value of such a (finite) sequence of 9 (more precisely, the limit value of the infinite sequence of finite sequences of 9). And this limit value is exactly 1. "1 = 0.9999..." in the same sense that "1/3 = 0.3333....." In fact, every decimal number (and only decimal numbers) has 2 decimal expansions: one expansion ending with 0 (named the "proper decimal representation", and an other expansion ending with an infinite sequences of 9 (named the improper one). Example: 0.25 = 0.2500000... = 0.24999999.... The two are equal to 1/4.




    0.111...*9 does equal 0.999...
    but 0.111... does not equal 1/9, nor does 0.999... equal 1
    This is related to the formal meaning of the sequence "0.11111...". Formally: Let Sn be the sum 10^(-1)+...+10^(-n): Sn=0,111..11 ("1" n times). The notation "0.1111..." doesn't represents any Sn's. It represents the limit value of the Sn's.
    By direct calculation (geometrical sum) we have Sn= (10^(-1) - 10^(-n-1))/(1 - 10^(-1))
    The limit value of 10^(-n-1) is 0. Then the limit value of the Sn's is (10^(-1) )/(1 - 10^(-1)), which is exactly 1/9.


    the paradox here is assuming the ability to do precise calculations involving imprecise infinite numbers - so you start with an error (erroneous assumption) and keep making errors, just like IRL
    We start with an error, and there always be an error (for every finite expansion), but these errors are going smaller and smaller and the limit value of theses errors is nothing else than 0, and so in considering limit value, we have equality.
    Saying that "0.999...=1", or that "0.111... = 1/9", is exactly the same as saying that the limit value of, say, 1 + 1/n, is exactly 1.
    No 1 + 1/n is exactly equal to 1. But the limit value is.
    Last edited by Renk; 15.02.19 at 05:10.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renk
    The "magic" here is the infinite. For every finite sequence of 9's, the number 0.999...999 is not egal to 1. But "0.999...." doesn't represents any finite sequence of 9.
    you don't understand infinity - the point is simple: 'it never ends', therefore it never gets equal to 1, because that would mean an end to infinity
    and you said it yourself: no finite sequence equals one, no matter how lengthy the sequence, therefore it would be illogical to assume some special behavior far far away in infinity
    nothing special happens in numerical infinity, other than more of the same, so in the example above, you simply get an infinite number of nines, and not a zero or one, ever

    It represents (ie is a notation for) the limit value
    such notation is flawed, because all these are different from each other and different from one:

    0.9 (0.1 difference)
    0.99 (0.01 difference)
    0.999 (0.001 difference)
    0.999... (0.000...1 difference, infinitely small difference, but a difference nevertheless and a never-ending difference as well)
    . <---inconvenient insurmountable gap for the sequence, the tiny elephant in the room
    1 (no difference) <---limit value

    so it would be inappropriate to use the same notation for the sequence and for its limit, which are two different things, as shown above


    Parable of the Two Birds

    Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him...

    ...@ en.wikipedia.org Paramatman

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