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Thread: Exodus: Gods and Kings

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    Exodus: Gods and Kings

    Release Date: December 12, 2014
    Studio: 20th Century Fox
    Director: Ridley Scott
    Screenwriter: Steve Zallian, Adam Cooper, Bill Collage
    Starring: Christian Bale, Joel Edgerton, Aaron Paul, John Turturro, Sigourney Weaver, Ben Kingsley
    Genre: Drama
    Director Ridley Scott tackles the Biblical epic story of Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt into the Sinai desert and eventually to their Promised Land.
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    Trailer looked boring to me... not sure if u wanna watch this one.. Having second thought only coz of BALE
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    riddle me this, ridley me that:

    Killing Jesus (executive producer) (2015)
    David (producer) (?)
    Exodus: Gods and Kings (producer/director) (2014)
    The Vatican (TV Movie) (executive producer/director) (2013)
    Prometheus (producer/director) (2012)
    Prometheus 2 (rumored) (2016)

    someone is having a midlife end-life crisis?

    also: Noah (2014) - a new trend?


    Parable of the Two Birds

    Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him...

    ...@ en.wikipedia.org Paramatman

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    2-part review here...

    *** spoilers ahead ***

    another wannabe epic (like the recent 'noah' or was it 'noes'?) with average acting, uneven cgi, unconvincing execution, modernist influences,... failing to impress as entertainment, though the source material & the movie interpretation offer plenty of food for thought, some of which will be commented below
    afaik the old 'ten commandments' movie (same topic) with its dated graphics, heavy-handed dialogue, charismatic acting, huge cast/sets, ambitious production,... is a much better candidate to be called epic and entertaining


    the movie opens by claiming how hebrew slaves built egyptian cities/statues/glory, but there are several problems with that:
    - 400 years of that kind of slavery in the desert makes you dead/exhausted to death & depressive/numb/resigned, not rebellious or having large families - unless... the history got misinterpreted/exaggerated
    - egyptian monuments, like the pyramids, may predate even the earliest era of pharaohs, it is still unclear how they were built in the first place or what their real purpose was - such important details would be well known to the builders
    - what about slaves from other nations surrounding the egyptian empire?
    - 'their god hasn't forgotten them' - how can god forget something? omnipotence means omnipotent memory too

    - the pharaoh gets disrespected by the priestess - she would be very careful not to do something like that, she probably wouldn't even think about doing something like that
    - omens get ridiculed, but such behavior is clearly a modern development (omens can be understood as hints speaking of the universe or the developments/acteurs/events therein - just like looking at the clouds/sky to determine the oncoming weather, whereas omens are more mysterious, hard to explain or follow the reasoning thereof)
    - moses looks/behaves/acts very differently from his 'brother', yet they were raised in the same household - he should look & act like egyptian royalty - a royal adviser would act accordingly, not pretend or be allowed to act like an equal to the pharaoh's son in public, he would respect that and play his part, he would advise himself to act accordingly, as the etiquette of the era requires

    another motif here is the trinity of pharaoh (the keeper of things, his death marks the era of wars between brothers), moses (the good brother, one dualistic side), ramses (the bad brother, the other dualistic side, his opposite)

    - they go into wars without even knowing what they are fighting for, without trying to use diplomacy first
    - ramses is portrayed like a not too bright or able prince, but wasn't he historically quite a competent figure?
    - hittite armies were camped anticipating an attack and what happens? they still get surprised! :facepalm:
    - how come the pharaoh's son has no personal guards making sure nothing happens to him?
    - the battle has some nice stunts/shots but wasn't particularly thrilling, also, why would they turn around after a successful attack? surely the pharaoh or his son didn't lead every single battle, did they?
    - commanders lying to the pharaoh? why is moses saving ramses such a big deal, it is an argument in favor of the pharaoh son's invincibility: whoever attacks him fails, there's always something to protect him, the gods favor him, that would probably be a much more appropriate/believable conclusion, not immediate suspicion of his status lol
    - besides, it is unclear whether ramses was in such a danger (evasive maneuvers, anyone?), he who serves the pharaoh well, gets special treatment & praise/fame, since the gods chose him to aid the pharaoh, which is a great honor, not something to worry about or get mistreated for, lol
    - pharaoh's orders are questioned behind his back by the adviser (moses) no less! he was supposed to give advice earlier at the meeting, if he had any, not question the logical outcome later on

    - 'israelite' = 'he who wrestles with god' - the solution? finally realize how you cannot wrestle any other way than god's way, the only thing to wrestle with is own ignorance & illusions, so the correct interpretation would be: 'he who wrestles with his idea of himself and of god - the closer this idea is to the truth, the less there is to wrestle with, because the final goal of this action is simply concluding how things really are and not how you want/expect/imagine/think them to be (and to act accordingly afterward)
    besides, who in their right mind thinks they can out-wrestle god, an omnipotent intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by movie
    He who fights with God...
    He who wrestles with God...
    There is a difference.
    since they didn't explain the difference, let me try:
    - he who 'wrestles' is wrestling with the idea of god and all its implications, until it gets settled to something that feels natural or comfortable to him (aligned with one's current understanding), this process may get repeated many times, as one's beliefs change or modify throughout time, this state may be called 'undecided' or 'confused' or 'searching' or 'learning' or 'finding out'
    - he who 'fights' has decided/chosen to be the opponent/opposer/enemy/... of god and acts in such a way because that is what feels natural to him - usually these actions or people are called evil or demonic - whether or not their beliefs are definitive or only temporary (still undecided but strongly leaning towards the negative) is questionable, but there is an opinion that even the strongest opposer will eventually have to admit defeat (at the end of a greater cycle), meaning that his 'road to home' may be considered as the longest and most difficult of all (but then again, he is also the fittest to endure that kind of a journey, it fits him like a glove)
    - also, 'he who wrestles' or so-called 'israelite' is a general term that may apply to any human (according to its meaning), not necessarily be limited to hebrew-speaking people
    - what about the true self? he who reaches his true self will know exactly and undoubtedly what his relationship with god is and thus act accordingly

    - 'hebrews are the chosen people' - another misunderstood idea, which ought to go something like: hebrews are the chosen people to be hebrews, other nations are the chosen people to be other nations, they are all chosen to be that what they were/are/will be - simple, no? and all-inclusive (aka wholesome)

    - the elders somehow already know who moses is, even if they never saw/met him before
    - seems the egyptians have no idea how to deal with disobedience, yet how did they successfully deal with such things for 400 years?
    - god promises canaan, the land flowing with milk and honey - well, such a land is obviously not located in the desert, maybe he was talking about a heavenly land, in the afterlife? some call them green pastures (meaning: where nothing decays or becomes insufficient/lacking)
    - somehow everyone knows moses has an unnamed father ( , his true father) and that he was born as a slave (metaphorically: born un-enlightened, slave to his ignorance)
    - prophecy about a leader that would liberate his people and bring freedom? sounds like something every single oppressed nation has had - this also works as a metaphor for freedom of spiritual ignorance (aka enlightenment)

    ' It's one of life's more depressing ironies...
    That the men who crave power...
    Are best fitted to acquire it,
    and least fitted to exercise it.'

    why would that be depressing? they crave power to personally benefit from it, due to selfish interests and ignorant purposes/goals
    the best ruler does not have to do anything, his kingdom works by itself because everyone knows what to do, agrees with what they do and want to do it
    some say that god already created all there is, was and ever will be, so he doesn't need to do anything other than sit back and enjoy the show (that means to enjoy through your eyes/experiences too) - thats why his activities are called pasttimes (all been done or arranged or thought-of or set-up in the past, predestined, prearranged) - 'just push play', eh?


    - egyptians killing informants? even in current times governments love their informants, whats to say of periods of unrest/war
    - usually people wait for several years before talking about real parents, but in the case of moses no one bothered to say anything... ever

    - so moses marries a hebrew girl without knowing anything about her religion? how can they be married then? what kind of a convert is so ignorant?
    - awkward love scene like reading from a script... proceed!
    - moses lives 9 years nearby a mountain and never ever hears of it being forbidden to climb!
    - the burning bush was pretty lame/cheap and had nothing much to do with anything in the movie
    - the hebrew god was portrayed as a vengeful little brat (originally it was supposed to be a voice in the clouds or the like), not particularly inspiring or enlightening - moses was shown as very disobedient/foolish/angry/confused - if you are in the presence of god, wouldn't you at least be curious and ask for answers, as opposed to try and wrestle the unwrestleable? or maybe this is ridley scott speaking from his own personal experience and conclusion about the nature of divinity
    - 'who are you?' - 'I AM!' - this has deeper meaning: only god IS, everything else is derived from him and exists only as (a dependent) part of him, nothing else IS in their own right or of their own will/ability, they wouldn't know how to BE or what to BE - example: ask yourself do you know what your consciousness is (what to BE) or how it exists as an immaterial entity (how to BE) and how exactly did your arrive to your answers to these questions (indirectly, not through direct experience of your own being)
    - 'god isn't a boy' - what if he is playing a boy? what if he appears differently to different people? what if he has different religions for different nations, etc.
    - the hebrew woman abandoning her faith for moses (who isn't even enlightened yet)? she is also supposed to be of higher class, ie. educated regarding such matters
    - moses speaks of slave rights!
    - now that they are after moses seems no informants were left to provide the info, eh? :facepalm:
    - hebrews are slaves but somehow they can practice fighting in the open without being supervised or spied upon
    - 400 years of slavery and manual labor but now they are expert warriors somehow? with what experience? 400+ years old war trainers/experts or one-man-moses show?
    - so hebrew rebels destroy crops and other supplies, yet they & their families seem to be able to live without food supplies or the egyptians forgot to take those!

    - moses thinks he can teach god about military tactics :facepalm:
    - moses has free will or not? the kid god might be kidding
    this is an interesting point though, kid god keeps telling him that they have free will, yet moses thinks he was lead there

    simply put: free will is freedom to try to do whatever you want or desire, to try to be what you want to be... and see where this takes you

    but...
    what do you really want? to know who you really are
    and then? you'll know what you really want
    get it?

    lets say you have free will - how come you cannot use it to do anything you like, anything you can think of?
    because it seems that free will plays by certain rules, like:
    - it respects conditions within the materialistic universe (laws of nature, abilities of the human body,...)
    - it takes free will of others (in that universe) into consideration (humans, animals,...)
    - it respects conditions within the spiritual universe (results appropriate to your own level of spiritual purity)
    - it takes your whole being into consideration (synchronized body/mind/soul with appropriate results)
    - basically, it is very finely tuned to your own state of being (and everyone else's), providing everyone with the appropriate 'to each his own' results
    - does this mean free will is limited? maybe it is you who represents the limit, whereas free will merely adapts to your level and gives adequate results
    - in this case 'thy will be done' means that god's will always gets perfect results since he has the highest level of spiritual purity, but then again, is this not the same thing? god's will = free will (free from any obstacles whatsoever, on his level), so the phrase 'we have free will' means you have freedom to try and then you can perceive the effects of god's free will, giving you results according to what spiritual level you have

    conclusion? free but not absolutely free, free and not free at the same time!

    but what about god's role, someone may ask... - it was all his idea, execution, keeping it operational, sharing it (with you, among others) and perceiving/enjoying it (through you, among others)
    but which god, someone may ask... - any ultimate/highest god will do, they are all versions of the same, intended for different people/nations and different ages and inter-comparison by later generations (such as ourselves)
    what about evolution? it means evolving your understanding, evolving from the material towards the spiritual (or realizing how you never left the spiritual in the first place, which is why they say: (materialistic)'life is but a dream')

    what about the exodus theme?
    - one (abrahamic) interpretation - exiled from the garden of eden into the hardships of earth and then saved again by leading towards the promised land
    - another (eastern) interpretation - 'sent' (incarnated) to live and learn in the materialistic world in order to return ready for the spiritual world
    two interpretations and different religious views of (basically) the same process


    back to the movie:

    - whats up with the crocodiles?
    - hebrews asking for a settlement? they too are affected by the catastrophes even though they are the ones to be freed? - if everyone is affected by the plagues/catastrophes, it means no one is chosen to go through these events unaffected, everyone has a lesson to learn from it
    - kid god doesn't like when pharaohs think of themselves as gods, wants revenge, to see them on ther knees and still waits for 400 years to do that... omnipatient too?
    - the pharaoh wants moses dead for a long time, yet does not kill him when he gets the chance (twice)
    - he forgets his promise of slaying hebrew offspring or competing with the hebrew god in the bodycount, he likewise forgot to check with the omens (remember how they were accurate the first time around, even if ridiculed)
    - also, egyptian gods are portrayed as failures, however it is more believable that their signs were accurate, aligned with hebrew signs in their conclusions (same purpose, regardless of the civilization observed)

    in other words, just because some event does not happen according to your expectations doesn't mean it cannot or won't happen later on, it simply means that the conditions for it to happen were not met the first time around (movie example: attempts at purifying the water)

    - 'why you sleep so well? because you know you are loved' - this gets repeated twice and could be interpreted as: those who know god loves them can sleep well since there is nothing else to fear in this or any other world (other than being left all alone without divine care-taking, hopeless & helpless - a common trait of people who lost their faith)
    - 'god is with us' - says moses to the hebrews, but he was never absent in the first place (absence from thoughts or senses or absence of direct experience does not mean complete absence - it can be understood as: such presence is not required... yet) - god was with egyptians too, just in a different appearance (their own set of divinities) - seems how their own priests were not up to the task of accurately deciphering the omens regarding that particular event or their leader decided to act on his own, disregarding warnings of failure if he acts that way (even though those earlier catastrophes ought to persuade just about anyone)
    - you'd think moses finally got enlightened but he still worries about all kinds of things (and he is the guy who actually speaks to god, yet they portray him as lacking confidence after all he has been through)
    - kid god shakes head when watching hebrew celebrating in the distance (forgetting to honor him, worshiping something else instead)
    - 'i wouldn't do it if i didn't agree' says moses - this has a deeper meaning and may apply to anything we do, deep down we agree with it or at least admit we cannot do it any other way due to the surrounding circumstances/conditions - unless the wrestling spirit is still strong, eh?
    - 'Yet here we are, still speaking... But not for much longer.' says kid god and moses gives him an annoyed look without speaking, saying: '...now what?' hehe
    - 'if you disagree you should put down the hammer' - guess moses doesn't want to be a leader of his nation for all eternity, eh?


    Parable of the Two Birds

    Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him...

    ...@ en.wikipedia.org Paramatman

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  9. #7
    Slik's posts are too long so I'm breaking them up in parts.
    Last edited by Sazzy; 01.04.15 at 18:37.
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    slikrapid (31.03.15)

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    part2 (final part)

    moral of the story? the events in one's life may seem strange or hard or impossibly difficult or confusing, but a person of faith has to trust that his own path will lead him in such a way where all these obstacles are eventually overcome, even if it takes a long time for them to unfold in their own mysterious way - those wanting more than just trust/hope need to look deeper into themselves, into their very being, in order to reach answers of a higher level of understanding (which automatically means: stronger faith/hope that keeps getting proven along the way, reinforcing one's confidence about it), and those specially gifted or persistent or pure may actually reach the very source of this hope/faith/trust/understanding

    notice how there was an attempt to avoid showing any miracles (magical staff, voice from the clouds and the like), so every event could be explained by natural causes (even the kid god was shown as a vision, visible only to moses)
    another interesting thing is how not once did anyone mention judaism or jews - but this is not surprising since these people are different than the original 'israelites' and they even follow a different religion (they follow the babylonian talmud as their supreme book(s) of laws, the basis of judaism, whereas OT is disrespected and considered inferior but still useful to appear as a continuation from ancient times - so it seems the terms israelite & israel got hijacked by imposters in relatively recent times!)
    also, moses is shown as extremely confused most of the time which doesn't apply to enlightened individuals - if anything, they ought to be less confused and if they do not have an answer they ought to be confident that the answer will arrive at the right moment (when an answer is really needed, not when someone thinks it is needed)
    a few times it is implied how moses lies, like: when asked what god tells him, he does not mention there was no actual reply via god's voice - however, god does not necessarily have to speak to you directly or with a voice coming from a body, he speaks indirectly with other people's voices, with events, with your feelings, intuition, thoughts, etc.


    note: those having problems with using the word god (or God) may think of him as the ultimate (or primal or original) power that manifests, defines, fuels, moves, contains & maintains all manifested things as they change (their past/current/future states) - since there is no older or earlier or greater power and since everything else emanates from it, it is called omnipotent, of the highest intelligence, etc. - it is said that this intelligence also has a personality (that it is basically a self-sufficient conscious being of the highest possible order), whereas our personalities are 'made in its image' (modeled upon that archetype), along with other characteristics, etc.
    also, that the essence of this being is consciousness (the only thing we are able to perceive directly) - in other words, god is all-encompassing & all-pervasive consciousness of the highest order and we are lesser consciousness units or parts (conscious beings, souls, children), experiencing existence on a lower level of consciousness (including: experiencing a journey of self-discovery or self-realization, which results with increasing our level that maxes out as defined by our true self - naturally, this level is still way lesser when compared to the highest order)
    Last edited by slikrapid; 31.03.15 at 21:39. Reason: minor fix


    Parable of the Two Birds

    Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him...

    ...@ en.wikipedia.org Paramatman

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    Advanced User C3PO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sazzy View Post
    Snitlev's posts are too long so I'm breaking them up in parts.
    Thats not Snitlev :)
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    Sazzy (01.04.15) , yoco (01.04.15)

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    LOL, I didn't notice! Nice catch C3PO
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    what can i say more ? after that review ))

    personally i liked the movie very much,probably it was better than Noah ,well scratch probably , i'm pretty sure
    one of the top 10 2014 movies for me
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    Elite Asteroids Champion, Bubble Bobble Champion, Alien Commander Champion, 1992 Champion, Alien Invasion 2 Champion hellman's Avatar
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    A little above average movie.. could've been made better
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    Watched it last night. I seriously think Hollywood should stop making biblical movies. This one was just weird! So many wtf moments.... that sea splitting probably the biggest one!
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  18. #14
    I've had my doubts about this movie for ages now. Even my friend that is into the whole biblical scene wasn't over the top about it.
    You know what... I'm just going to kick this thing from my to watch list and leave it at that..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sazzy
    Even my friend that is into the whole biblical scene wasn't over the top about it.
    (biblically) religious friend or
    enjoyer of movies with biblical themes?

    the former may complain because of a disrespectful portrayal of religious matters (common in hollywood), the latter because of inaccuracies regarding the original story (common in hollywood), both because it was an average movie, lacking epic moments and failing to rise to much older movie(s) on the subject (i'm tempted to say 'common nowadays' again hehe)


    Parable of the Two Birds

    Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him...

    ...@ en.wikipedia.org Paramatman

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