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Thread: Using Tor becomes a criminal offense in Austria

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    Using Tor becomes a criminal offense in Austria

    June 30th, 2014 marks a turning point for Austria.(...) The operation of TOR exit nodes supposedly was also declared a criminal offense by a regional criminal court. The accused was operating a TOR exit node which was being used fraudulently by a third party to transmit content of an illegal nature.(...)
    According a judgement was based on §12 of the Austrian penal code:
    Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action.
    https://network23.org/blackoutaustri...glish-version/

    Questions: Are the ISP who routes criminal traffic guilty too? And the companies who sold the optical fibers, the companies who made the routers, too ?
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    Instab (05.07.14) , slikrapid (05.07.14) , hellman (04.07.14) , anon (04.07.14)

  3. #2
    Questions: Are the ISP who routes criminal traffic guilty too? And the companies who sold the optical fibers, the companies who made the routers, too ?


    No comment, really we have to calm our nerves because we still has a lot to deal with is still coming !!
    Last edited by Lucius; 04.07.14 at 02:50.
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    Instab (05.07.14)

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    This post takes this completely out of context. Especially with that small rant at the end. Have you read the articles or are you just jumping on the media bandwagon?

    The person in question had a tor exit node running that apparently had child porn going through it. When questioned about it in court, he replied that he really didn't care at all that tor can be used to distribute that sort of material. Being such a sensitive subject, a reply like that is bound to be interpreted the wrong way, as it implicitly states that he was okay with this happening. It also implies that he is fine with the fact that his node (and thus himself) is part of a crime. This can be considered as "conditional intent". There were also chatlogs available where he suggested tor to easily host material anonymously, "even child porn".

    The story would've been completely different if he had acted like a normal human being and responded differently to the questions, or even better and not responded to them in the first place and let his lawyer handle it.

    Is he actually guilty of anything? Probably not. But in the end, I can only feel like he screwed himself over.

    Fact remains though, that he was judged for his responses about the exit node and not because he was hosting one.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://kurier.at/lebensart/technik/strafe-fuer-tor-betreiber-grazer-urteil-wirft-fragen-auf/73.173.618
    Lässt sich aus dem Urteil also der Schluss ableiten, dass der Betrieb von Tor-Servern in Österreich strafbar ist? "Nein", sagt der Salzburger Richter und Betreiber der Website Internet4Jurists, Franz Schmidbauer, zur futurezone. Der Betrieb von Tor-Servern sei grundsätzlich zulässig, denn laut Paragraf 13 des E-Commerce-Gesetzes, das auch auf den Betrieb von Tor-Servern angewendet werden könne, ist ein Diensteanbieter für die übermittelte Information nicht verantwortlich, sofern er bestimmte Bedingungen erfüllt.
    Last edited by Sazzy; 04.07.14 at 19:08.
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    @sazzy: I don't understand , Is Tor now is banned or using it consider a criminal action in general in Austria or it's just that case ?
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  7. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
    @sazzy: I don't understand , Is Tor now is banned or using it consider a criminal action in general in Austria or it's just that case ?
    What? No.. Did you even read my post ?!
    I even set the tl;dr in bold...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sazzy View Post
    Fact remains though, that he was judged for his responses about the exit node and not because he was hosting one.
    And the german part pulled through google translate because I'm lazy:
    Can the judgment so the final deduce that the running Tor servers is punishable in Austria? "No," says the Salzburg judges and operator of the website Internet4Jurists, Franz Schmidbauer, for future zone. The running Tor servers is in principle lawful, because according to Section 13 of the E-Commerce Act, which could also be applied to the operation of Tor servers, a service provider is not responsible for the information transmitted, provided it meets certain conditions.
    Last edited by Sazzy; 04.07.14 at 19:51.
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    Lucius (04.07.14)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sazzy View Post
    This post takes this completely out of context. Especially with that small rant at the end. Have you read the articles or are you just jumping on the media bandwagon?

    The person in question had a tor exit node running that apparently had child porn going through it. When questioned about it in court, he replied that he really didn't care at all that tor can be used to distribute that sort of material. Being such a sensitive subject, a reply like that is bound to be interpreted the wrong way, as it implicitly states that he was okay with this happening. It also implies that he is fine with the fact that his node (and thus himself) is part of a crime. This can be considered as "conditional intent".
    Thanks for the precisions, but i partially disagree.

    I don't know the exact words the offender said to the court, but when he say that Tor can be used to distribute CP, this his technically exact. In fact, the whole web, the whole internet can be used to distribute illegal material, as the postal service can be used ti distribute CP magazines. So comes a question: Imagine a postman distributing an envelope containing CP pictures to a person having ordered it. Then the postman get in judgement (???), and the judge asks him "Are you aware that Postal Service can be used to distribute such material?", the postman answer "yes I do" and then the judge conclude "Ha! So you implicitly state you are OK in distributing CP picture! This implies you are fine with the fact the envelope you distributed had a CP contain, this implies you are fine in participating to a crime! According the Law This can be considered as "conditional intent!"

    I wonder why people abandon all rationality and become hysteric as soon as internet is involved.
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    alpacino (05.07.14)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renk
    Questions: Are the ISP who routes criminal traffic guilty too? And the companies who sold the optical fibers, the companies who made the routers, too ?
    most likely not, but depending on the interpretation (lawyers/judges/jury) and with enough pressure (industry/interest groups) it could be turned into an issue which then requires new laws, which then become even worse than the previous ones... you know the drill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sazzy
    Fact remains though, that he was judged for his responses about the exit node and not because he was hosting one.
    wasn't he brought in because he was hosting the node in the first place? even though he technically cannot control or know what data passes through the node
    remember 'thought crimes'? could it be that now we also have 'emotion crimes': he didn't care about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Sazzy
    The story would've been completely different if he had acted like a normal human being and responded differently to the questions, or even better and not responded to them in the first place and let his lawyer handle it.
    i think they were looking for a scapegoat, fitting nicely in the 'war on cyber-terror' agenda (even CP was involved, of all things), his behavior merely made the sentence tougher

    Quote Originally Posted by translated article
    Can the judgment so the final deduce that the running Tor servers is punishable in Austria? "No,"
    not unless someone abuses it and gets caught, then the server/node host gets in trouble as well - since tor has a reputation of frequent abuse, who would want to do the hosting in such a hypocritical scenario?


    Parable of the Two Birds

    Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of that tree; the other eats not but watches his companion. The self is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him...

    ...@ en.wikipedia.org Paramatman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
    we still has a lot to deal with is still coming !!
    i'm afraid you might be right there
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    Lucius (05.07.14)

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