Moved from the "How the FBI Investigates Computer Crime" thread

[Extraterrestrial]

the key word here is response
as for the 'many cities', are you counting villages as well?

The key factor isn't waiting till you get attacked.

so what are you saying, that mohammad's successors weren't representing islamic rule, or that they disobeyed him? notice that a significant part of the peninsula was indeed populated (and/or ruled) by non-arabic (and/or pre-islamic) people, during & after his life

In fact, caliph Omar ( the second caliph ) executed it by expelling Jews from khybar, according to radicals, all Arab political regimes are apostates from Islam specially in the gulf countries, Yeman and SA because of not adhering to Islamic law.
Whatever, this belongs to a different discussion maybe in a religious section, let's concentrate on bin laden.

not a good suggestion, especially when trying to find out the meaning of a sentence/text

I can't translate whole text.

wrong again:

Recent history (1989–present)
Main articles: War in Darfur, Chad-Sudan conflict, and Eastern Front (Sudan)

On 30 June 1989, colonel Omar al-Bashir led a group of army officers in ousting the unstable coalition government of Prime Minister Sadiq al-Mahdi in a bloodless military coup.[9] Under al-Bashir's leadership, the new military government suspended political parties and introduced an Islamic legal code on the national level.[37] He then became Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council for National Salvation (a newly established body with legislative and executive powers for what was described as a transitional period), and assumed the posts of chief of state, prime minister, chief of the armed forces, and minister of defense.[38] Subsequent to al-Bashir's promotion to the Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council for National Salvation, he allied himself with Hassan al-Turabi, the leader of the National Islamic Front (NIF), who along with al-Bashir began institutionalizing Sharia law in the northern part of Sudan. Further on, al-Bashir issued purges and executions in the upper ranks of the army, the banning of associations, political parties, and independent newspapers and the imprisonment of leading political figures and journalists.[39]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan

The map is wrong.

if you want to be exact, then takfir & kaffer apply only to muslims who in some way knowingly abandon islam or its core beliefs (it also seems that this kind of label is not given lightly, in legal sense, needing significant evidence to justify it), the correct translation being: unbeliever ('one who hides the truth') - the connection of this term with other religions is a recent development (distortion), certainly much later than mohammad's time

nope, kaffer is an infidel, "mortad" (مرتد) AKA renegade is a muslim who in some way knowingly abandon islam or its core beliefs.
(منافق) AKA hypocrite is one who hides the truth.
All are common terms in early Islam but again this has nothing to do with bin laden.

here is a short science-oriented brochure focused on some of the holes/inconsistencies in the official 9/11 interpretation:

eh!, you may find it useful to browse this site also:

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/911/twin-towers/
http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/911/building-seven/

[slikrapid]

@Extraterrestrial:

The key factor isn't waiting till you get attacked.

waiting shouldn't be too hard when one has an ample backup of (among others) usa ground & air forces already deployed and ready for combat

according to radicals, all Arab political regimes are apostates from Islam specially in the gulf countries, Yeman and SA because of not adhering to Islamic law.

interesting, yet they reserve bombings for usa & its allies only, i'd say thats a bit too convenient for the external enemies and a bit too colliding with the supposed fanaticism, even with their own local regime's inability to deal with them, not to mention strategically futile - ie. way too many inconsistencies

I can't translate whole text.
The map is wrong.

then we have a 'stub' here

eh!, you may find it useful to browse this site also:

what i noticed about that site is that they pretend to be skeptics yet seem to agree with just about every official explanation (paradox), their personal profiles have no real weight behind the statements and would you call this:

Since JFK and possibly the Oklahoma City Bombing there has not really been much conspiracy theorists could banter about, so it is not surprising that when this tragic event happened, almost instantly conspiracy theories began to flood the Internet.

trustworthy/unbiased attitude? don't think so...

[Extraterrestrial]

waiting shouldn't be too hard when one has an ample backup of (among others) usa ground & air forces already deployed and ready for combat

Defensive war is always a bad choice, when you have invaded a neighboring country threatening others, the wisest choice isn't waiting till you get attacked.

interesting, yet they reserve bombings for usa & its allies only, i'd say thats a bit too convenient for the external enemies and a bit too colliding with the supposed fanaticism, even with their own local regime's inability to deal with them, not to mention strategically futile - ie. way too many inconsistencies

Based on your false/lacking information, they succeeded in carrying out many attacks in almost every Middle-Eastern country including assassinating and trying to assassinate political leaders.

Examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Egypt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Saudi_Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Yemen

then we have a 'stub' here

If you want a translation for a certain phrase/word, then it's ok but not whole articles, takes a lot of time and effort
Btw, the map seems to be accurate since you have two states in Sudan, the north ruled by Shariaa and the South governed by English law so Regional law is the accurate term.

what i noticed about that site is that they pretend to be skeptics yet seem to agree with just about every official explanation (paradox)

What's wrong of being skeptical of the conspiracy theories cult ?

[slikrapid]

they succeeded in carrying out many attacks in almost every Middle-Eastern country including assassinating and trying to assassinate political leaders.

notice however that a significant majority of these attacks have been aimed at killing foreign (western, usa, british, etc.) tourists/citizens, much less at military personnel and the small minority at political figures - what would be expected though is exactly the opposite order, if the attacks are indeed genuinely interested in fi. influencing the local politics or driving out foreign threats, since tourists are naturally the least interesting target - interestingly, by focusing on civilian targets, quite the opposite is achieved, the 'war on terror' agenda getting even more political support in the west, more than it could ever dream of achieving without these attacks, which would mean that the terrorists are acting against their own interests and i find it very hard to believe that they are simply ignorant or don't care about it, its yet another hint at a rigged game to advance western imperialist (concerning foreign countries) and dictatorial (concerning their own countries) goals - it can be seen through history as well, take a look at the 'dreaded' ira or hamas - what exactly have they achieved? it must have been something since new generations are attempting to use a similar path, but what is it, this achievement?...exactly, there is none, its mostly a plethora of false flag operations by intelligence agencies with duped assets

the same scenario is visible when observing the targets/casualties of the most hyped terrorist organization today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_al-Qaeda_attacks

furthermore, no one seems to question how can it be that the so-called islamist terrorists now have the same targets as the israeli (military) intelligence a few decades ago:

Lavon Affair
A covert operation under the direction of Israeli military intelligence with the intent to destablize the Nasser government in the summer of 1954 through terrorist bombings of Egyptian, American and British government facilities was unsuccessful and the Israeli trained Egyptian Jewish operatives who planted the bombs were all captured, although all of their Israeli handlers escaped. The Lavon Affair, so named because Israeli Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon was later implicated and forced to resign, was a false flag operation with evidence planted at the bomb sites implicating the Muslim Brotherhood.[8]

combine this with the above mentioned intelligence involvement in 1993 and you get a hint at how much these so-called independent terrorist groups are actually infiltrated by intelligence agents, up to the point where these agents alone incite violent actions, provide the necessary material, safe-houses, etc. - the other, easier scenario for the intelligence agencies would of course be to simply 'invent' a terrorist organization and then go about recruiting willing participants, where they can control every operation since they run it!

[Extraterrestrial]

notice however that a significant majority of these attacks have been aimed at killing foreign (western, usa, british, etc.) tourists/citizens, much less at military personnel and the small minority at political figures

notice however that killing civilians in the radicals ideology isn't something evil and killing tourists was an act of rebel against the state who refused to apply the islamic law regarding having "idols" aka "Ancient Egyptian Antiquities" open to the public, forbidding wine & other unislamic systems which was all associated with tourism and it's evil repercussions on islamic society.
Killing a president, trying to kill another one and many attempts to kill political leaders (interior ministers) isn't a small minority.

what would be expected though is exactly the opposite order, if the attacks are indeed genuinely interested in fi. influencing the local politics or driving out foreign threats, since tourists are naturally the least interesting target

Again you are talking from your POV (western).

interestingly, by focusing on civilian targets, quite the opposite is achieved, the 'war on terror' agenda getting even more political support in the west, more than it could ever dream of achieving without these attacks, which would mean that the terrorists are acting against their own interests and i find it very hard to believe that they are simply ignorant or don't care about it,

There is no difference in their interpretation between civilians and warriors, they say that you're either helping or not and westerns civilians are helping their governments by electing & funding them (paying taxes) so killing is acceptable.

its yet another hint at a rigged game to advance western imperialist (concerning foreign countries) and dictatorial (concerning their own countries) goals - it can be seen through history as well, take a look at the 'dreaded' ira or hamas - what exactly have they achieved? it must have been something since new generations are attempting to use a similar path, but what is it, this achievement?...exactly, there is none, its mostly a plethora of false flag operations by intelligence agencies with duped assets

These organizations don't look forward to short term benefits.
The rest is conspiracy nonsense tbh.

furthermore, no one seems to question how can it be that the so-called islamist terrorists now have the same targets as the israeli (military) intelligence a few decades ago:

This operation was performed by Jewish people not by Muslims in a time where Abd El-Nasser was inciting other Arab states to attack Israel, a few years later, Israel launched a war against Egypt in 1967, after 6 years Egypt won the war in 1973 and then signed a peace treaty.
What does a failed Jewish terrorist attack have to do with our discussion?

combine this with the above mentioned intelligence involvement in 1993 and you get a hint at how much these so-called independent terrorist groups are actually infiltrated by intelligence agents, up to the point where these agents alone incite violent actions, provide the necessary material, safe-houses, etc. - the other, easier scenario for the intelligence agencies would of course be to simply 'invent' a terrorist organization and then go about recruiting willing participants, where they can control every operation since they run it!

There is no question about intelligence agencies failure to detect terroristic attacks, much of it lies in the bureaucracy that the FBI, CIA, and military intelligence has to deal with, instead of making conspiracies on that subject, i recommend you reading these two books:

The 1993 World Trade Center Bombing: Foresight and Warning

http://books.google.com/books?id=P3PO_lfVZmQC&lpg=PA6&dq=Was%20there%20an%20intelligence%20movement%20involvement%20in%20world%20trade%20center%201993&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

Breakdown: how America's intelligence failures led to September 11

http://books.google.com/books?id=5QWzZXb1D7QC&lpg=PA26&ots=ZG-4FqqP6X&dq=Was%20there%20an%20intelligence%20movement%20involvement%20in%20world%20trade%20center%201993&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

[slikrapid]

killing tourists was an act of rebel against the state who refused to apply the islamic law

but it still makes little or no sense to do so, since regardless of the law governing the country it won't change anything concerning the tourist beliefs, they will not become compelled to convert to islam (especially if it is a fundamentalist type) - the rebellion, if it was genuine, would be directed towards those that are the key elements in establishing/steering a system of values/rules (government, politicians, multinational/large companies, etc.) - through attacks on tourists the islamist terrorists lose whatever shreds of validity they may have had

There is no difference in their interpretation between civilians and warriors, they say that you're either helping or not and westerns civilians are helping their governments by electing & funding them (paying taxes) so killing is acceptable.

sounds very similar to the bush quote: 'you're either with us or against us'
as for the rest, it is nothing more than a justification, an excuse to do something that would otherwise be condemned in common life (ie. bending the 'rules' to fit the goal)

There is no question about intelligence agencies failure to detect terroristic attacks, much of it lies in the bureaucracy that the FBI, CIA, and military intelligence has to deal with

thats what they want you to think, that they made huge/unbelievable mistakes, but the evidence shows a much more sinister involvement & pre-planning, one that will benefit only the elite, not their countries/people, as already witnessed in the effects of the 'patriot act' and similar documents

another hint at how the terrorists lack sincerity is their usage of the 9/11 events in propaganda, playing along with usa, taking the 'blame' for something they could only dream of accomplishing and turning it into 'glorious deeds' for religious causes that will serve well as a legend/myth for attracting new recruits, hiding their real incompetence & collusion with western elitists/stooges (who always play on both/multiple sides in a conflict, profiting as usual from the outcome), whereas the media presents them as mortal enemies to the unsuspecting public

[Extraterrestrial]

but it still makes little or no sense to do so, since regardless of the law governing the country it won't change anything concerning the tourist beliefs, they will not become compelled to convert to islam (especially if it is a fundamentalist type) - the rebellion, if it was genuine, would be directed towards those that are the key elements in establishing/steering a system of values/rules (government, politicians, multinational/large companies, etc.) - through attacks on tourists the islamist terrorists lose whatever shreds of validity they may have had

I explained it above and i won't repeat it again plus these attacks were part of the overall picture, for government, politicians, here you are:

1- On 28 December 1948 Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha was shot and assassinated by Abdel Meguid Ahmed Hassan, a veterinary student and member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

2- After a nationalist military coup led by Gamal Abdel Nasser overthrew the Egyptian monarchy, the Brotherhood were very disappointed to find the officers were secular in orientation and the brotherhood did not gain influence. On 26 October 1954 a member of the brotherhood attempted to assassinate President Nasser and a general suppression of the Brotherhood followed, including imprisonment of thousands of members and the execution of six of its most prominent leaders.

3- By 1981 President Anwar Sadat had become unpopular among Egyptians and enraged Islamists by signing a peace treaty with Israel. On 6 October 1981 Sadat and six diplomats were assassinated while observing a military parade commemorating the eighth anniversary of the October 1973 War. Lieutenant Colonel Khalid Islambouli and two other members of the Tanzim al-Jihad movement fired machine guns and threw grenades into the reviewing stand.



4- Victims of campaign against the Egyptian state from 1992-1997 totaled more than 1200 and included the head of the counter-terrorism police (Major General Raouf Khayrat), dozens of European tourists and Egyptian bystanders, and over 100 Egyptian police.

5- In October 1990, Egyptian Islamic Jihad attempted to assassinate Egyptian Interior Minster Abdel-Halim Moussa but ended up killing parliamentary Speaker Rifaat el-Mahgoub by mistake.

6- 1993 was a particularly severe year for terrorist attacks in Egypt. 1106 persons were killed or wounded. More police (120) than terrorists (111) were killed that year and "several senior police officials and their bodyguards were shot dead in daylight ambushes."

7- 8 June 1992 – assassination of Farag Foda.

8- 26 June 1995 – attempt to assassinate Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

9- 19 November 1995 – Car bomb attack on the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan. 16 people were killed.

sounds very similar to the bush quote: 'you're either with us or against us'

hehe, but with a slight variation, Bush targets countries while militant groups targets individuals.

thats what they want you to think, that they made huge/unbelievable mistakes, but the evidence shows a much more sinister involvement & pre-planning, one that will benefit only the elite, not their countries/people, as already witnessed in the effects of the 'patriot act' and similar documents

Who are they?
On the other side, you are made to think that intelligence agencies have God Powers to be able to monitor everyone at the same time.

another hint at how the terrorists lack sincerity is their usage of the 9/11 events in propaganda, playing along with usa, taking the 'blame' for something they could only dream of accomplishing and turning it into 'glorious deeds' for religious causes that will serve well as a legend/myth for attracting new recruits, hiding their real incompetence & collusion with western elitists/stooges (who always play on both/multiple sides in a conflict, profiting as usual from the outcome), whereas the media presents them as mortal enemies to the unsuspecting public

and how do you know what they are really hiding other than the conspiracy mumbo jumbo?

[slikrapid]

the Muslim Brotherhood...a member of the brotherhood attempted to assassinate President Nasser and a general suppression of the Brotherhood followed

here is an example of their competence concerning this attack:

The gunman, 25 feet (7.6 m) away from him, fired eight shots, but all missed

the following events:

Upon returning to Cairo, he ordered one of the largest political crackdowns in the history of Egypt, with the arrests of over 20,000 people, mostly members of the Brotherhood, but also Communists, Wafd activists, and sympathizers of these groups within the military leadership.

which shows how this is a very suspicious incident that looks like a staged attempt that justified a wide-range of politically motivated persecution (false-flag scenario), especially since the 'muslim brotherhood' is supposed to be a moderate organization, another hint at infiltrated agents smearing their reputation (see above the example for israeli military intelligence involvement)


Unraveling the Myth of Al Qaida

The myth of "al Qaida" is built on an expansive foundation of many half-truths and hidden facts. It is a CIA creation. It was shaped by the agency to serve as a substitute "enemy" for America, replacing the Soviets whom the Islamist forces had driven from Afghanistan. Unknown American officials, at an indeterminate point in time, made the decision to fabricate the tale of a mythical worldwide network of Islamic terrorists from the exploits of the Afghan Mujahedeen. The CIA already had their own network of Islamic militant "freedom fighters," all that was needed were a few scattered terrorist attacks against US targets and a credible heroic figurehead, to serve as the "great leader."

The really tricky part of creating a mythical terrorist monster out of an incomplete truth is laying-out the facts behind your mythical story without revealing the whole truth about your part in its creation. In order to explain away the billions of dollars worth of weapons and training that went into the operation, they chose a rich jihadi, a Saudi millionaire named Osama bin Laden, who had been a faithful recruiter and business agent of the Mujahedeen. He was painted as the sole financier of the entire enormous operation that was centered in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Bin Laden may not even have known that he was playing a part in a deceitful CIA global drama until after the fact. It is more likely that his history was chosen many years later to serve as the legacy of "al Qaida," than it is that he was a brainwashed tool of the spy agency all along.

The story of bin Laden is the story of the secret CIA/ISI insurgent camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan. According to Prof. Michel Chossudovsky, Osama was 22 years old in 1979, when he was trained in a CIA sponsored guerilla training camp near Peshawar, Pakistan.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7787

with a slight variation, Bush targets countries while militant groups targets individuals.

not essentially, he targets (terrorizes) countries, groups, individuals - the only reason why the islamic terrorists don't go after whole countries is their limited size, which is intentionally kept low by their handlers (western stooges) so that in case of a rebellion (blow-back) their power would be of a limited scale, ie. non-threatening to the usa & co. (they mostly don't want a full-scale local conflict as it is more profitable to have/create/stir occasional incidents as needed - easier to manage)

Who are they?

primarily usa & israeli governments, their military & intelligence apparatus, their media & corporate leaders, members of various national/international organizations (un, eu), think-tanks, councils (cfr), commissions (trilateral c.), different more or less hidden elitists and a plethora of lower level personnel of various ranks in many different countries - detailed enough?

you are made to think that intelligence agencies have God Powers to be able to monitor everyone at the same time.

not really, the holes regarding the official 9/11 story (among others) are easily putting the swiss cheese to shame, the only reason why it hasn't already collapsed like a house of cards is because of the higher level officials that perpetuate the myth on many societal levels, ignoring/marginalizing genuine independent research into the matter

how do you know what they are really hiding

see the link above & the following one:

Today's 'Islamic Fascists' Were Yesterday's Friends

In a nutshell, the wars over state, territory, and politics that defined the Cold War era have given way to cosmic battles between "good" and "evil" – between a West apparently keen to defend secular, democratic values and its twisted opponents who prefer the idea of autocratic Islam.

This simplistic view of the new geopolitical landscape is deeply problematic. It overlooks the key role that the West played in nurturing radical Islamist groups, precisely as a means of isolating and undermining secular movements that were judged by Western governments to be too uppity or dangerous. Over the past 80 years and more – from Egypt to Afghanistan to Palestine – powerful governments in the West and their allies in the Middle East helped to create radical Islamic sects as a bulwark against secular nationalist parties or pan-Arabism. They gave the nod to, and in some instances funded and armed, Islamist movements that might challenge the claims of local anti-colonial, liberationist, or communistic outfits.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3109

[caballero]

primarily usa & israeli governments, their military & intelligence apparatus, their media & corporate leaders, members of various national/international organizations (un, eu), think-tanks, councils (cfr), commissions (trilateral c.), different more or less hidden elitists and a plethora of lower level personnel of various ranks in many different countries - detailed enough?

This is the point people are not accepting. They think that the globalist/elite (the ones you mentioned) sit together in a meeting on a big round table (or talking through a secure line from the us to israel) and discuss what they plan to do next. It doesn't work like this, they themselves don't know one another, the hierarchy is way too big, big enough to make you think this isn't happening. Yes, it's difficult to imagine, but that's what is really going on.

you are made to think that intelligence agencies have God Powers to be able to monitor everyone at the same time.

slikrapid already answered, they don't have God powers!, they do make mistakes. The way they operate to minimise errors: plan dozens of years ahead and things may go right.

http://www.globalresearch.ca

How much do you spend reading this site

[Extraterrestrial]

This is the point people are not accepting. They think that the globalist/elite (the ones you mentioned) sit together in a meeting on a big round table (or talking through a secure line from the us to israel) and discuss what they plan to do next. It doesn't work like this, they themselves don't know one another, the hierarchy is way too big, big enough to make you think this isn't happening. Yes, it's difficult to imagine, but that's what is really going on.

In fact, some conspiracy theorists claim that they actually meet, know each other very well, plan ahead for world dominance and a unified world government (The Bilderberg Group), you can find loads of docs & articles about this conspiracy theory.

[slikrapid]

They think that the globalist/elite (the ones you mentioned) sit together in a meeting on a big round table (or talking through a secure line from the us to israel) and discuss what they plan to do next. It doesn't work like this, they themselves don't know one another, the hierarchy is way too big, big enough to make you think this isn't happening.

the hierarchy is indeed quite large, but a few things should be taken into consideration, like: at the top levels there aren't that many elitists (maybe a few dozens up to a few hundred) so coordination at that level isn't too difficult (with the possibility of a number of more or less competing structures) and the fact that many of them share membership across all kinds of top-level (inter)national organizations, so they definitely have a good overview of different overarching goals within and/or above and/or between them, furthermore, if their ancestry is taken into consideration (a significant linking point at which they are very proud of) only a limited number of the so-called 'bloodlines' may be abstracted - thus, by taking this into consideration, the communication might not be such a problem after all

How much do you spend reading this site

actually, not that much overall, but from time to time as some topic arises - i noticed that they are quite versed & decent in their analyses so its a good source, though on the negative side, they are limited to a more down-to-earth view on political matters (ie. not too interested in stepping outside those boundaries when examining events) and they tend to have a prevailing left-wing bias as well, but i guess nobody is perfect, eh?

[Extraterrestrial]

here is an example of their competence concerning this attack:

We don't have any visual records from the failed attempted assassination so all what can you do is to imagine what really happened but you really amaze me when you make conspiracies out of nothing but a failed one i'm afraid to be:
1- the one who tried to assassinate Naser was from the muslim brotherhood and was sentenced to death ( you can't say he was hired to do it because no one is willing to die for a lie).

2- 7.6 m away from the platform without talking into your account that the platform was at least 6 m high.

3-Nasser was already a dictator so he could persecuted his opponents without an excuse like the current president ( what do you expect from a man who led a military overthrow).

4- Thanks for not making conspiracies on the rest of the political assassinations.

5-

especially since the 'muslim brotherhood' is supposed to be a moderate organization,

wrong , reading directly from your source, we find the following:

In the early and middle 20th century, both British and U.S. intelligence supported the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, the group from which so many of today's radical Islamic sects – including Hamas and even al-Qaeda – have sprung.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3109

Unraveling the Myth of Al Qaida

I'm not going to make comments on each statement, you may find these articles also interesting since we're exchanging articles:

http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_links_to_the_cia.html
http://www.911myths.com/html/do_al_qaeda_exist.html
http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_links.html

not essentially, he targets (terrorizes) countries, groups, individuals - the only reason why the islamic terrorists don't go after whole countries is their limited size, which is intentionally kept low by their handlers (western stooges) so that in case of a rebellion (blow-back) their power would be of a limited scale, ie. non-threatening to the usa & co. (they mostly don't want a full-scale local conflict as it is more profitable to have/create/stir occasional incidents as needed - easier to manage)

aha!
so the US government is funding al-Qaeda fighters in Iraq & Afghanistan to kill American soldiers and make the rest of them handicapped and disabled, thanks for the info
pls, take into your account hundreds of rich middle-eastern "charity organizations" & individuals who fund them willingly.

primarily usa & israeli governments, their military & intelligence apparatus, their media & corporate leaders, members of various national/international organizations (un, eu), think-tanks, councils (cfr), commissions (trilateral c.), different more or less hidden elitists and a plethora of lower level personnel of various ranks in many different countries - detailed enough?

so how many zeros do we have to count to total the number of the conspirators?
10000
sounds reasonable, i'll think about it.

not really, the holes regarding the official 9/11 story (among others) are easily putting the swiss cheese to shame, the only reason why it hasn't already collapsed like a house of cards is because of the higher level officials that perpetuate the myth on many societal levels, ignoring/marginalizing genuine independent research into the matter

no hard evidence = conspiracy nonsense imo.

[slikrapid]

@Extraterrestrial:

but you really amaze me when you make conspiracies out of nothing

hehe, who said anything about conspiracies? its a suspicious event with a shallow official interpretation and a convenient aftermath, ie. i don't 'buy it'

generally, there is a tendency of using the term 'conspiracy (theory)' too lightly, waving it around like a banner, as if the mere mentioning should be sufficient to discard all evidence/investigation related to it (or labeled to be as such), but naturally this will only satisfy those who are easily convinced with popular labels & empty phrases or those clinging on to (official) authorities for explanations as they were raised/taught to do

you can't say he was hired to do it because no one is willing to die for a lie

are you kidding? how many millions of soldiers/civilians have died blindly (or through indoctrination) following some delusional ideologies (ie. lies) in conflicts/wars all over the world in just about every era of human existence?

the group from which so many of today's radical Islamic sects – including Hamas and even al-Qaeda – have sprung.

misinterpretation? if these militant members thought their previous organization(s) was sufficient they would have stayed there, but it was obviously too moderate so they left and joined/created/co-created (were recruited into,...) more aggressive ones

so the US government is funding al-Qaeda fighters in Iraq & Afghanistan to kill American soldiers and make the rest of them handicapped and disabled, thanks for the info

umm, that was already mentioned a few times before

so how many zeros can we count to total the number of the conspirators?

depends how you define 'conspirator', every lower level (of power) has less knowledge/insight (+horizontal compartmentalization), the lowest ones don't even have a clue - the majority just do their job, ie. what their superiors demand/order/assign without asking (too many) questions

no hard evidence = conspiracy nonsense imo.

the real 'hard' evidence is mostly in the hands of official investigators (and they were really quick to dispose of it far away from the scene), but when events are blamed on patsies there is no hard evidence against them, just that which was artificially set-up to point at them (or circumstantial or interpreted in such way), furthermore if by 'hard evidence' you mean fi. intact documents/dna 'found' at the scene after the planes got thoroughly incinerated and buried under tons of rubble, then i'm afraid no inconsistency might be big enough to raise suspicion anyways

[Extraterrestrial]

generally, there is a tendency of using the term 'conspiracy (theory)' too lightly, waving it around like a banner, as if the mere mentioning should be sufficient to discard all evidence/investigation related to it (or labeled to be as such), but naturally this will only satisfy those who are easily convinced with popular labels & empty phrases or those clinging on to (official) authorities for explanations as they were raised/taught to do

Generally speaking, it's good to be skeptical and (Not) to take every official explanation for granted but on the other hand, there is a growing cult going the wrong way from being skeptical to paranoid with little or no information on the subject/issue they're dealing with.

are you kidding? how many millions of soldiers/civilians have died blindly (or through indoctrination) following some delusional ideologies (ie. lies) in conflicts/wars all over the world in just about every era of human existence?

True, but the people responsible of brainwashing the executer of this failed attempt assassination weren't the government, you can blame the brotherhood of brainwashing him with these delusional ideologies.

misinterpretation? if these militant members thought their previous organization(s) was sufficient they would have stayed there, but it was obviously too moderate so they left and joined/created/co-created (were recruited into,...) more aggressive ones

Hamas is part of the international Muslim brotherhood organization and isn't a different institution.

Hamas was founded as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1987

Btw, you have the wrong idea of the brotherhood, their ideas don't differ from those of Taliban regarding non-muslims/ women / individual freedom (persecuting everyone who don't share the same ideas/beliefs based on radical/salafist interpretation of islam)
the only difference between them and al-Qaeda is that they don't call for international jihad ( at least for now ) but they will shelter and fund them.

depends how you define 'conspirator', every lower level (of power) has less knowledge/insight (+horizontal compartmentalization), the lowest ones don't even have a clue - the majority just do their job, ie. what their superiors demand/order/assign without asking (too many) questions

Even with your definition of a "conspirator", you'll still need to find a way to keep secrets between at least 1000 conspirator since the big faces are regularly changed/replaced through elections ...

the real 'hard' evidence is mostly in the hands of official investigators (and they were really quick to dispose of it far away from the scene), but when events are blamed on patsies there is no hard evidence against them, just that which was artificially set-up to point at them (or circumstantial or interpreted in such way), furthermore if by 'hard evidence' you mean fi. intact documents/dna 'found' at the scene after the planes got thoroughly incinerated and buried under tons of rubble, then i'm afraid no inconsistency might be big enough to raise suspicion anyways

Afaik, it took them almost a year to clean up ground zero, i wouldn't call that "really quick".
oh, i forgot to add the "official investigators" to the list of "conspirators"

[slikrapid]

@Extraterrestrial:

on the other hand, there is a growing cult going the wrong way from being skeptical to paranoid with little or no information on the subject/issue they're dealing with.

this phenomenon wouldn't even be so visible if the info was easily available & transparent in the first place - there is also a growing 'cult' of 'debunkers' who feel a certain need (some get paid for it) to recycle official stories or add disinfo in an attempt to bring down the aforementioned 'cult' or at least to confuse the issue

the people responsible of brainwashing the executer of this failed attempt assassination weren't the government, you can blame the brotherhood of brainwashing him with these delusional ideologies.

who knows what/who might be the one to blame for that, it might range from a conspiratorial operation to individual subconscious need to be indoctrinated into something, and/or a combination of these

since the big faces are regularly changed/replaced through elections ...

and where do they go? back into the fold (leading positions at multinational companies, advisers,...), changing roles only in terms of public appearance, getting ample bonuses for their previous actions that benefited these organizations - as for the new 'big faces' they continue the same kind of politics, perhaps slightly different in short-term effects but much less different regarding long-term ones - its the reason why people get the feeling that nothing really changes significantly as time (and politicians) go by, what they get is lots of hype per crumb of change (and thats if it is even aimed 'for the better' at all)

Afaik, it took them almost a year to clean up ground zero, i won't call that "really quick".
oh, i forgot to add the "official investigators" to the list of "conspirators"

that which was incriminating disappeared quick enough - since it was an 'inside-job' it wouldn't be too wise to have leaks among official investigators now would it (which still doesn't really say how many of them were infiltrated agents or people with an agenda or people with non-disclosure contracts) and finally there is the horizontal compartmentalization to limit exposure as well