Moved from the "How the FBI Investigates Computer Crime" thread

[Extraterrestrial]

there is also a growing 'cult' of 'debunkers' who feel a certain need (some get paid for it) to recycle official stories or add disinfo in an attempt to bring down the aforementioned 'cult' or at least to confuse the issue

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

and where do they go? back into the fold (leading positions at multinational companies, advisers,...), changing roles only in terms of public appearance, getting ample bonuses for their previous actions that benefited these organizations

This is called "political corruption" and it differs from one country to another.

as for the new 'big faces' they continue the same kind of politics, perhaps slightly different in short-term effects but much less different regarding long-term ones - its the reason why people get the feeling that nothing really changes significantly as time (and politicians) go by, what they get is lots of hype per crumb of change (and thats if it is even aimed 'for the better' at all)

still no signs of how do they keep these secrets among large numbers of conspirators from different countries/institutions.

that which was incriminating disappeared quick enough - since it was an 'inside-job' it wouldn't be too wise to have leaks among official investigators now would it (which still doesn't really say how many of them were infiltrated agents or people with an agenda or people with non-disclosure contracts) and finally there is the horizontal compartmentalization to limit exposure as well

no evidence = conspiracy theorists fantasies.

[slikrapid]

@Extraterrestrial:

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

would you say that by pressing the power button on your computer it results solely with an 'equal and opposite reaction'?

This is called "political corruption" and it differs from one country to another.

only in appearance, not in essence

still no signs of how do they keep these secrets

money, power, control, to name just a few (some other ways have already been mentioned), but since the system isn't perfect leakage always occurs so there are ways to reduce the possible damage/impact, sometimes it happens intentionally, to show their superiority (or as a 'timeless manifesto' kind of thing)

no evidence = conspiracy theorists fantasies.

you might be surprised at how many fantasies are currently officially maintained - those are a bit more sinister/powerful/far-reaching than those you keep labeling so lightly with obvious bias

remember that brochure link a few posts ago, those fi. are no fantasies, its scientifically backed-up from experts in the field (those that are not afraid or indifferent to asking questions) and no amount of political sweet-talk would rise up against (or stand-up to) proper research in any decent society

[Extraterrestrial]

would you say that by pressing the power button on your computer it results solely with an 'equal and opposite reaction'?

Nah, I'd say by examining these conspiracies and separating fact from fiction it results with an " equal and opposite reaction".

money, power, control, to name just a few (some other ways have already been mentioned), but since the system isn't perfect leakage always occurs so there are ways to reduce the possible damage/impact, sometimes it happens intentionally, to show their superiority (or as a 'timeless manifesto' kind of thing)

eh! I'm asking you about the mechanism by which these "conspirators" keep these secrets hidden from both newly added members to the system/the big conspiracy?
keep in mind that by today most of yesterday's conspirators are off-duty and replaced by newly elected/appointed members, we aren't talking about dictators ruling for decades?

you might be surprised at how many fantasies are currently officially maintained - those are a bit more sinister/powerful/far-reaching than those you keep labeling so lightly with obvious bias

You claimed the following to be true:

that which was incriminating disappeared quick enough

and

(which still doesn't really say how many of them were infiltrated agents or people with an agenda or people with non-disclosure contracts)

where's the evidence behind these claims? you either have one or you're fabricating those claims by your fancy words.

remember that brochure link a few posts ago, those fi. are no fantasies, its scientifically backed-up from experts in the field (those that are not afraid or indifferent to asking questions) and no amount of political sweet-talk would rise up against (or stand-up to) proper research in any decent society

I'm not a psychologist but a lot of these people are attention whores & like to be seen repeatedly (Alex Jones is a perfect example) serving their political & commercial endeavors.
The industry of conspiracy books & videos & websites has gained huge amounts of money and popularity by exploiting people's need to believe in earthly demons (something to blame for the misery in their life) aka the elite who have nothing to do with their life except for daily conspiring/controlling major events in each country, this cult serves the conspiracy theorists ( money & fame)/ the crowd "meaning and having to know what's been hidden ( forbidden knowledge)". With their earthly fabricated demons and gods, they're recruiting new believers to evangelize their newly discovered conspiracy-hidden truth-cover up-inside job by disturbing brochures/videos, wearing t-shirts and parading in major cities and have already created their own vocabulary for the purpose of demonizing their opponents as government agents, disinfo agent,...etc.

This is my own conspiracy of the conspiracy theorists, money/power/control/fame

Btw, their claims have been repeatedly debunked through the investigation led by a group of the most professional scientists/experts in the US but they'll always refuse it because keeping the myth alive means keeping the industry rolling.

[slikrapid]

@Extraterrestrial:

I'm asking you about the mechanism by which these "conspirators" keep these secrets hidden

see previous answers farther above

we aren't talking about dictators ruling for decades?

some of these organizations don't go back just decades but for hundreds of years, some even millennia!

where's the evidence behind these claims?

you don't expect proof for each and every statement now, do you

a lot of these people are attention whores & like to be seen repeatedly (Alex Jones is a perfect example)

true, jones also tends to exhibit psychotic attacks, sometimes spreading more panic than useful info

The industry of conspiracy books & videos & websites has gained huge amounts of money and popularity...serves the conspiracy theorists ( money & fame)

i wouldn't call it huge, its peanuts compared to their 'adversaries' (especially the original ones, less compared to the 'debunkers'), further they need to do something to have a decent life (fi. sell books/videos and/or 'ordinary jobs'), furthermore doing quality in-depth research has a tendency to demand most of their time & attention/dedication (ie. forget additional 'ordinary jobs')

by exploiting people's need to believe in earthly demons (something to blame for the misery in their life) aka the elite who have nothing to do with their life except for daily conspiring/controlling major events in each country,

you've got a good point there
though, the elite (mostly) didn't get their positions by being honorable/sincere/caring/moderate, its exploitation, collusion, corruption, greed and similar behavior that played a major role (some of them claim god-given birth-rights, bloodlines, ancestry as proof of superior status) - similar to any 'profession' they generally tend to stick together in order to keep (and extend) the balance of power in their favor, to some of them playing/toying with human lives is a favorite kind of sport/entertainment

[Extraterrestrial]

some of these organizations don't go back just decades but for hundreds of years, some even millennia!

Great, I'd like to have a list of these organizations followed by names of their immortal conspirators, just to add them to my "list of conspirators".

you don't expect proof for each and every statement now, do you

No, i don't expect evidence for each statement but it's useful to point out that these claims are conspiracy theories and not a known facts.

i wouldn't call it huge, its peanuts compared to their 'adversaries' (especially the original ones, less compared to the 'debunkers'), further they need to do something to have a decent life (fi. sell books/videos and/or 'ordinary jobs'), furthermore doing quality in-depth research has a tendency to demand most of their time & attention/dedication (ie. forget additional 'ordinary jobs')

Their profits are huge compared to their fellow workers on this field and did you notice that compiling these conspiracies is much more (fun, profitable) than their ordinary jobs both in the long and short run?

though, the elite (mostly) didn't get their positions by being honorable/sincere/caring/moderate, its exploitation, collusion, corruption, greed and similar behavior that played a major role (some of them claim god-given birth-rights, bloodlines, ancestry as proof of superior status) - similar to any 'profession' they generally tend to stick together in order to keep (and extend) the balance of power in their favor, to some of them playing/toying with human lives is a favorite kind of sport/entertainment

Where is your evidence of their direct involvement in the "big conspiracy"?

[slikrapid]

@Extraterrestrial:

Great, I'd like to have a list of these organizations

fi. two well known ones with well established conspiratorial tendencies/character: (free)masons (supposedly dating back to egyptian times BC) & the catholic church (its core certainly goes well into BC era), one could count various royal families into this equation as well (even though their empires changed through time in name/territory as well as in appearance), not to mention other more secretive/hidden groups

but it's useful to point out that these claims are conspiracy theories and not a known facts.

the more one dwells into areas of low transparency or provability the harder it gets to substantially back-up some claims/opinions/views - even in purely scientific examinations one ends up with a number of (questionable) theories that from time to time get replaced or contested with other (new) ones, where certainty beyond doubt is something hard to establish (if possible at all)

Their profits are huge compared to their fellow workers on this field and did you notice that compiling these conspiracies is much more (fun, profitable) than their ordinary jobs

now i could ask you the same, to prove it (at least in one decent/believable example)
shouldn't it be desirable for one's job/work/hobby/exploration to be fun/thrilling/enjoyable/profitable, fulfilling one's existential needs & those one is interested in?

Where is your evidence of their direct involvement in the "big conspiracy"?

first you'll have to define the 'big conspiracy' (as this is quite a vague term) and show where i mentioned someone (directly) involved in it

[Extraterrestrial]

fi. two well known ones with well established conspiratorial tendencies/character: (free)masons (supposedly dating back to egyptian times BC) & the catholic church (its core certainly goes well into BC era), one could count various royal families into this equation as well (even though their empires changed through time in name/territory as well as in appearance), not to mention other more secretive/hidden groups

Not sufficient, I said followed by names of their immortal conspirators, if possible a list of conspiracies they're involved in, evidence of their involvement and relevance of these organizations to what we're dealing with now.

the more one dwells into areas of low transparency or provability the harder it gets to substantially back-up some claims/opinions/views - even in purely scientific examinations one ends up with a number of (questionable) theories that from time to time get replaced or contested with other (new) ones, where certainty beyond doubt is something hard to establish (if possible at all)

so in conclusion you don't have any evidence at all and yet you assert those claims with your fancy words and say that i'm biased!

now i could ask you the same, to prove it (at least in one decent/believable example)

The Economics of Conspiracy Theories

But there is more to conspiracy theories than mass psychology. It is also big business. Voluntary associations such as the Ku Klux Klan and the John Birch Society are past their heyday. But they still gross many millions of dollars a year.

The monthly "Fortean Times" is the leading brand in "strange phenomena and experiences, curiosities, prodigies and portents". It is widely available on both sides of the Atlantic. In its 29 years of existence it has covered the bizarre, the macabre, and the ominous with panache and open-mindedness.

"Conspiracy theories certainly are sexy at the moment ... I've been contacted by five or six TV companies in the past six months - two last week - all interested in making programmes about conspiracy theories. I even got a call from the Big Breakfast Show, from a researcher who had no idea who I was, asking me if I'd like to appear on it ... These days we've got conspiracy theories everywhere; and about almost everything."

But these two publications are the tip of a gigantic and ever-growing iceberg. "Fortean Times" reviews, month in and month out, books, PC games, movies, and software concerned with its subject matter. There is an average of 8 items per issue with a median price of $20 per item.

There are more than 186,600 Web sites dedicated to conspiracy theories in Google's database of 3 billion pages. The "conspiracy theories" category in the Open Directory Project, a Web directory edited by volunteers, contains hundreds of entries.

There are 1077 titles about conspiracies listed in Amazon and another 12078 in its individually-operated ZShops. A new (1996) edition of the century-old anti-Semitic propaganda pamphlet faked by the Czarist secret service, "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion", is available through Amazon. Its sales rank is a respectable 64,000 - out of more than 2 million titles stocked by the online bookseller.

the full article is here:

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977393718

apply this to the 911 conspiracy theories and you'll get the full picture, self made documentaries selling millions of DVDs, books, websites, magazines....etc.

shouldn't it be desirable for one's job/work/hobby/exploration to be fun/thrilling/enjoyable/profitable, fulfilling one's existential needs & those one is interested in?

hell ya especially if i can get more of the green stuff from it, i'd drop out of college/ordinary boring job and devote myself completely to it.

first you'll have to define the 'big conspiracy' (as this is quite a vague term) and show where i mentioned someone (directly) involved in it

I don't have to do that since i don't believe in the "big conspiracy", you're the one required to define it, state names and show us evidence of their direct involvement on it rather than saying that they did it or the government did it.

[slikrapid]

@Extraterrestrial:

Not sufficient,...

phew...to quote another character: 'anything else you might be wantin'?'

and say that i'm biased!

i'm not the one whose virtually every other sentence either contains or implies the word 'conspiracy'

hell ya especially if i can get more of the green stuff from it, i'd drop out of college/ordinary boring job and devote myself completely to it.

well, if thats your/their choice, i have no problems with it, the same goes for people wanting to buy or promote (or profit from) such material - but if i find invalid bias, inconsistencies, suspicious claims and a lack of trustworthiness it'll be mentioned/criticized when a suitable occasion arrives - as in every field of human activity, the 'rubbish' far outweighs 'quality'

you're the one required to define it...rather than saying that they did it or the government did it.

you forgot one thing: you were the one who introduced the term 'big conspiracy', so its rather pointless that someone else attempts to define it without knowing exactly what is to be considered by it - as for the rest and my comments in general its all 'imo' (as expected) with a suitable level of explanations involved

@The Economics of Conspiracy Theories:

nice try, but lets put these things into perspective:

take best-selling book authors of mainstream vs. best-sellers from a conspiracy-related area: for recent books its around 20-80 million (see under 1.) copies vs. hundreds of thousands up to a million (marrs, icke,...), ie. somewhere around a 100-fold difference, for book-series or a career total the differences are even greater:

According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Christie is the best-selling writer of books of all time and, with William Shakespeare, the best-selling author of any kind. Only the Bible has sold more than her roughly four billion copies of novels

take china for example, a comparison between high-selling (recent) books, the difference is also around 100-fold:

Wolf Totem) Jiang Rong Chinese 2004 20 million[48]

China buy into conspiracy theory: best-selling book Currency Wars on Asia Crisis & Rothschild control of US
Tue, 25 Sep 2007

In a new Chinese best-seller, Currency Wars , these disparate events spanning two centuries have a single root cause: the control of money issuance through history by the Rothschild banking dynasty....The book´s publisher, a unit of the state-owned CITIC group, said Currency Wars had sold nearly 200,000 copies

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books
2. http://www.sott.net/articles/show/140695-China-buy-into-conspiracy-theory-best-selling-book-Currency-Wars-on-Asia-Crisis-Rothschild-control-of-US
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_Christie

in addition, one should consider that the mainstream is likewise populated with much more authors than other fields, has an officially sponsored promotional machinery behind it, isn't frowned upon as long as the themes remain within expected boundaries, brings larger profits/attention/recognition/audience and thus remains more desirable and socially safer/approved area to work in, whereas conspiracy-related work (and i'm not talking about fiction writers) is like walking on thin ice, the audience is much sharper, recycling is difficult, profits are much lower and it takes a lot of time/patience to dig through obscure material & connect the dots into a meaningful end-result, so its definitely not a 'walk in the park' kind of thing

There are more than 186,600 Web sites dedicated to conspiracy theories in Google's database of 3 billion pages.
There are 1077 titles about conspiracies listed in Amazon and another 12078 in its individually-operated ZShops.

the proper terminology would likely be related-to instead of dedicated-to and the number likely concerns the cumulative number of pages (not sites) - even so, if we consider 'conspiracy' to be a 'field of activity', 3 billion divided by 186,600 gives approximately 16,000 other fields, which shows how its not that big after all - the same can be said by comparing the number of related amazon books to their multi-million total number of books, this field is simply not mainstream (with a few exceptions) thus its logical to expect everything else other than 'huge' sales

furthermore, they did not differentiate 'debunker' sites, afaik they weren't even mentioned, also, notice the complete absence of any references in the article, a ridiculing tone of its contents, yet they had to admit that:

Yet, cinema and TV did more to propagate modern nightmares than all the books combined.

so we're back to the real big-business which again dwarfs all the traditional conspiracy-related researchers & their talk-shows, dvds & other profit-making video material with a single blockbuster movie, let alone their related catalogue

i'd say the misconception here is created by not differentiating between fiction authors (fi. dan brown) and 'researchers'/scholars (fi. david icke), the former are well represented within entertainment/publishing industry and the related products can achieve large profits, whereas the latter are located within non-mainstream, with all its connotations

[Extraterrestrial]

phew...to quote another character: 'anything else you might be wantin'?'
i'm not the one whose virtually every other sentence either contains or implies the word 'conspiracy'
you forgot one thing: you were the one who introduced the term 'big conspiracy', so its rather pointless that someone else attempts to define it without knowing exactly what is to be considered by it - as for the rest and my comments in general its all 'imo' (as expected) with a suitable level of explanations involved

I'm starting to get bored as i don't see we're getting anywhere from this debate since you're determined not to define your terms, provide names and evidence.

take best-selling book authors of mainstream vs. best-sellers from a conspiracy-related area: for recent books its around 20-80 million (see under 1.) copies vs. hundreds of thousands up to a million (marrs, icke,...), ie. somewhere around a 100-fold difference, for book-series or a career total the differences are even greater:

According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Christie is the best-selling writer of books of all time and, with William Shakespeare, the best-selling author of any kind. Only the Bible has sold more than her roughly four billion copies of novels

Are you kidding?
you're comparing literature to political books!
Compare it to the same-genre, take for example the The Da Vinci Code novel:

The book is a worldwide bestseller that sold 80 million copies as of 2009[update][1] and has been translated into 44 languages. This makes it, as of 2010, the best selling English language novel of the 21st century and the 2nd biggest selling novel of the 21st century in any language. Combining the detective, thriller, and conspiracy fiction genres, it is Brown's second novel to include the character Robert Langdon, the first being his 2000 novel Angels & Demons. In November 2004, Random House published a Special Illustrated Edition with 160 illustrations. In 2006, a film adaptation was released by Sony's Columbia Pictures.

take china for example, a comparison between high-selling (recent) books, the difference is also around 100-fold:

China?
Not related to our subject but anyway, notice that Wolf Totem is a novel:

Wolf Totem is narrated by protagonist Chen Zhen, a young man in his 20s who, like the author, left his native Beijing to work in Inner Mongolia during the cultural revolution.[3] Through descriptions of folk traditions, rituals, and life on the steppe, Wolf Totem compares the culture of the ethnic Mongolian nomads and the Han Chinese farmers who settle in their territory, praising the "freedom, independence, respect, unyielding before hardship, teamwork and competition" of the former and criticising the "autocratic, sheeplike" nature of the latter.[1] The book condemns the agricultural collectivisation imposed on the nomads by the settlers, and the ecological disasters it caused, and ends with a 60-page "call to action" disconnected from the main thread of the novel. The author states that he was inspired to begin writing Wolf Totem by an accident: he ignored the advice of the clan chief of the group of nomads with whom he was staying, and accidentally stumbled across a pack of wolves. Terrified, he watched as the wolves chased a herd of sheep off a cliff, then dragged their corpses into a cave. From then on, fascinated by the wolves, he began to study them and their relationship with the nomads more closely, and even attempted to domesticate one

while the Currency Wars on Asia Crisis & Rothschild control of US is fulled of conspiracy related information i suppose and yet sold 200,000 copies, with an estimated 400,000 extra pirated copies, i'm surprised.

in addition, one should consider that the mainstream is likewise populated with much more authors than other fields, has an officially sponsored promotional machinery behind it, isn't frowned upon as long as the themes remain within expected boundaries, brings larger profits/attention/recognition/audience and thus remains more desirable and socially safer/approved area to work in, whereas conspiracy-related work (and i'm not talking about fiction writers) is like walking on thin ice, the audience is much sharper, recycling is difficult, profits are much lower and it takes a lot of time/patience to dig through obscure material & connect the dots into a meaningful end-result, so its definitely not a 'walk in the park' kind of thing

the proper terminology would likely be related-to instead of dedicated-to and the number likely concerns the cumulative number of pages (not sites) - even so, if we consider 'conspiracy' to be a 'field of activity', 3 billion divided by 186,600 gives approximately 16,000 other fields, which shows how its not that big after all - the same can be said by comparing the number of related amazon books to their multi-million total number of books, this field is simply not mainstream (with a few exceptions) thus its logical to expect everything else other than 'huge' sales

again, you're comparing conspiracy theories related business to other fields which have nothing to do with politics but rather entertainment...
compare it to their fellow workers in the same field and you'll see how much it's big, you don't have to be a skilled writer nor an expert in your field but rather a researcher whose sources are usually urban myths playing on the public fears and ignorance, misinterpreting major political events, revolving around lies & misquotations, distorting history, twisting science to serve his purpose usually smth similar to voodoo and benefiting from the process through selling million of copies of self made documentaries, DVDs , books , TV shows ...etc.

so we're back to the real big-business which again dwarfs all the traditional conspiracy-related researchers & their talk-shows, dvds & other profit-making video material with a single blockbuster movie, let alone their related catalogue

Don't you think that these movies gave them more advertising and publicity more than they ever dreamed of?

Btw, if you want to end this debate here, it's ok as i don't see we aren't getting anyway near an agreement.

[tokiodrift1]

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[slikrapid]

@Extraterrestrial:

you're comparing literature to political books!
Compare it to the same-genre, take for example the The Da Vinci Code novel:

actually, i did that, one more than one occasion - dan brown's book is more of a cross-genre so you can compare it either way, but one has to realize the difference between mainstream and non-mainstream when viewing profit distribution, lumping big-business & independent research into one basket is causing erroneous views on the subject

btw. political books are a part of literature

while the Currency Wars on Asia Crisis & Rothschild control of US is fulled of conspiracy related information i suppose and yet sold 200,000 copies, with an estimated 400,000 extra pirated copies, i'm surprised.

which shows what numbers can be achieved with hype-aided sales, still its far from the usual best-sellers, not to mention an exception within thematically related material

again, you're comparing conspiracy theories related business to other fields which have nothing to do with politics but rather entertainment...

even purely political books (again, not quite the same genre) aren't really part of the mainstream (they have their moments of increased reader interest mostly in times of (global) crises when they manage to reach greater sales) - as expected, the situation is similar here as well, where only well-known typical conspiracy-related writers barely enter the best-seller list (1-15):

14. The Trillion-Dollar Conspiracy, by Jim Marrs. (Morrow, $26.99.) Author of “The Rise Of The Fourth Reich” proposes that America’s current social and economic maladies were engineered.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/07/august-poli-books-best-seller-list/

you don't have to be a skilled writer nor an expert in your field but rather a researcher whose sources are usually urban myths

thats the popular view, usually spread by people who didn't actually read any decent related material (ie. have no relevant knowledge concerning it) or by propaganda distributors (to discourage possible interest in it) or by populists (who parrot what the public wants to hear or thinks it knows/understands) or by those with vested interests - furthermore, writing itself isn't exactly easy or something anyone would be able to accomplish with a respectable quality of the written material, not to mention maintaining it over multiple books

playing on the public fears and ignorance, misinterpreting major political events, revolving around lies & misquotations, distorting history, twisting science to serve his purpose usually smth similar to voodoo and benefiting from the process through selling million of

interestingly enough, this is exactly what politicians/governments/intelligence/big-business do on a daily basis

Don't you think that these movies gave them more advertising and publicity more than they ever dreamed of?

the entertainment industry will use every available topic/theme if it can profit from it and/or influence the consumers - every author is free to decide how to deal with it, fi. whether he will become a sell-out or remain true to original/early self-imposed standards (ie. reader expectations)

Btw, if you want to end this debate here, it's ok as i don't see we aren't getting anyway near an agreement.

it was never my intention to reach an agreement, but rather to address some issues, present some opinions, challenge other ones, learn something from it, use some fancy words , etc.