Ars Technica: China claims their internet is largely "open"/unrelgulated

[Nobody]

China to US: shut up about "so-called Internet freedom"

Highlights:

The Chinese constitution protects freedom of speech, he added—which it does, along with freedom of the press, of association, of religion, of demonstration, and freedom to criticize the government.

China insists that its restrictions are all written into law, however, and are therefore legal, which in turn means that they are a simple matter of cultural difference, and foreigners should just stop talking about them and start complying with them. The reality, as most Internet companies have found, is that censorship can be random, and even major companies never know when Internet services will be blocked and when they won't.

In case you didn't catch the previous news leading up to this announcement, I'll try to sum up what I've heard:

-- Google gets a (second) massive hacking attack, using an exploit in IE, from servers based on China

-- Google discovers the source of both attacks appears to be the same place/series of places, all of which are official Chinese government institutions or well-known government funded companies

-- The attacks appeared to Google to be an attempt to gain information and access to the Gmail accounts of potential Chinese government dissidents and rebels

-- Previously in a large snafu, Google had agreed to pre-censor some content for the Chinese government for it's Google.cn web portal. After the discovery that the government may be involved in the hacking attacks, Google threatens to completely uncensor Google.cn and let China regulate their own internet... and China responds as it did in this article

I find it really fascinating to see this new world power cut it's teeth in the political world. They're beginning to throw their weight around, and I'm curious to see if the world will be willing to cater to their unique laws, given their financial potential in the near-future.

Equally interesting... at the end of the article, it talks about the possible hypocrisy of the U.S. espousing a "clean"/"unregulated" internet when it's widely known that most of the world's traffic goes through the U.S., and the NSA is known to have the capabilities of monitoring/capturing all of it in real time.

Thoughts?

[whateveritakes]

As a Chinese, not a follower of any political parties, living in a Special Administrative Region named Hong Kong, took my under grad in north america, post grad in China. I think I have the right to say something about it (freedom of speech right?)

Although I am not living in China, but surely have friends and relatives studied/grown up there. Chinese is a complicated ethnic! Under tough circumstances China has been facing, sometimes things like this could not be avoid. Some country has schemers who used other country's own policy (weakness) to trample on their own reputation, starting conspiracies, to make their own citizen think their own government is living in the best place in order to build up faith, in order to achieve certain result beneficially. It is surely an artifice, a smart one. But it gets ugly when it's revealed. well, you are the slave of the bank, you have to pay bills too... How much freedom you're enjoying?

Putting words into other's mouth when other's hands and legs are too busy to brace their own body up from the ground, how gentle you are. China had been weak for too long, once a Brilliant nation, suffered over 100 years of weaknesses if we want a good future, to grow as fast as we can, to bring back what we lost in this century, to catch up from time, Strict rule are nessesary. Chinese likes Dragons and Tigers, believes in consequences, believes in 5 kind of elements (fung shui), and there are this argument if we make the tiger more hungry, the more powerful it becomes, it is cruel, but it fucking works! For our nation's own good, overall, after all, I do have faith in our future under this government's policy.

Chinese government has bull shits, they do, but tell me which government does not?
We do it obviously, but we have results.

Medias will only report or say "judge" under their own values. I lived in both china, and north america long enough to experience, seriously, the difference is china feel more Backward in time, life is not as worth. but it will catch up, it's all about development, and development takes time, the real Democracy will come one day, just not now.

Fucking look at Taiwan... Democracy huh? There is not big of a deal on
Democracy or Communism, it's all about the quality of life. To stop from Invasion, politically, financially, economically, we are getting there.

Chinese are not like Japanese, nor American. Most Chinese are not as well educated as first world countries, while most of you having good educations, Chinese is suffering war, without good weapons millions of people died, that means millions of families had been suffering a massive psychological damage. It doesn't just reset the emotion somehow by pressing a key. It wounds the society, emotionally, economically. Second world war, the internal war...
What could freedom possibily mean anything to us? 50 years ago, it has been succeed taken advantages from us, and it is never going to stop unless we get stronger. The only way to defend ourself is to shut the fuck up and get to work on it. Well, some chinese do understand this principle some don't and will never understand, some will betray, some will escape from the fact our grandfather's grandfather caused, and it made them forgot who they are, where they belongs. just that they were never living in the real world, they live in the matrix, they live in the world that "information" wants them to see how the world is like.

The 5000 years of wisdom, not just bred the Unique characteristics and cultural, also we have our own management philosophy over the nation. It has to be in certain ways to manage Chinese people in China. Chinese Government is corrupted, no doubt, but not all of them! there are still good people, good leaders in it! I do not assure it is the best way to go, but it is defiantly not the wrong way. applying the western ways to manage such complicated nature, will only lead to a total failure! Therefore "Before you say anything about China, Please fucking learn Chinese." - To those who had no reasons to Slighting the Chinese Nature!

Thanks

---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:26 ----------

sorry, i was kinda getting too impassioned while i was writing the above paragraphs

[slikrapid]

Thoughts?

here are some:

http://www.sb-innovation.de/showthre...threadid=18193

imo this is some sort of political game, not really connected to the censorship issue (unless it gets sorted out with a 'global' solution), as it should be obvious that google must accept a country's laws (however unfair they may be) to be able to function legally in it, also it has been censoring all kinds of material long before, so google itself is no 'innocent' party considering this topic

what is unusual here may be the lack of cooperation on the hacking problem (real official issue), as they continue their conflict considering the censorship which should be of secondary priority in this case - obama & co. aren't helping, actually they are using this opportunity to criticize the chinese government (at the same time raising their own shaky rating)

well, you are the slave of the bank, you have to pay bills too... How much freedom you're enjoying?

well, i'm pretty sure this is a global thing and that the chinese citizens are no exception considering their debt situation to their banks

China had been weak for too long, once a Brilliant nation, suffered over 100 years of weaknesses if we want a good future, to grow as fast as we can, to bring back what we lost in this century, to catch up from time,

the problem is, any hypothetical growth by one country will result in a decrease somewhere else in the world, which is why global growth is not achievable and why there will still be poor countries in the world (and also poor regions within countries) as the international corporations will make sure this situation continues

Strict rule are nessesary...we make the tiger more hungry, the more powerful it becomes, it is cruel, but it fucking works! For our nation's own good, overall, after all, I do have faith in our future under this government's policy

frankly, this sounds like dictatorship...after all, people should learn already that there is no 'savior' government - those in command tend to resemble each other worldwide, regardless of the system, so a few examples of illusionary choice: usa (2 big parties='the same'), uk (3 big parties='the same'), china (how many big parties? )

Democracy or Communism, it's all about the quality of life.

i would disagree, one may live in a golden cage, its still a cage though and again regardless of the system or the country, we see no big improvements in the rich-poor (or privileged-common) constellation, whether quality of life or human liberties are concerned

is suffering war, without good weapons millions of people died, that means millions of families had been suffering a massive psychological damage. It doesn't just reset the emotion somehow by pressing a key. It wounds the society, emotionally, economically. Second world war, the internal war...

this has been discussed here earlier, and china is not an exception to these global events, so it looks like the nwo agenda works there too:

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/the_li_bloodline.htm

applying the western ways to manage such complicated nature, will only lead to a total failure!

actually, applying the western ways to the west hasn't shown much usefulness so far and its pretty much a safe bet that the chinese government's way will prove to be similarly lacking, as all of them are in fact governed by somewhat hidden forces/rulers with specific interests & allegiances, ones that see common people as a mere 'class to be ruled', working force & collateral/expendable resources

[Nobody]

China had been weak for too long, once a Brilliant nation, suffered over 100 years of weaknesses if we want a good future, to grow as fast as we can, to bring back what we lost in this century, to catch up from time, Strict rule are nessesary.

I don't think anyone doubt's China's greatness. And I think anyone who thinks China has ever been particularly weak, might have some larger political bias.

I lived in both china, and north america long enough to experience, seriously, the difference is china feel more Backward in time, life is not as worth. but it will catch up, it's all about development, and development takes time, the real Democracy will come one day, just not now.

I think in this case, the world is intimidated because they see China's potential in the world stage. This is a good time to bring up U.S. history (as I can't speak for the history or perspective of any other country). As I'm sure your already aware, we have a long, long history of anti-communist propaganda that's been infused in to the popular consensus. This is (in my opinion), why we're having such a hard time getting laws enacted to "socialize" health care, even though it's not technically socialism.

Now whether or not our propaganda-infused logic is right or not is another matter altogether, but I think that America is frightened of China trying to conform the world to their system of government. I think it's an irrational fear, but an ever-present one given our history with communism in the past. Likewise, I think China is afraid of the world trying to force it to conform when it's future is so bright.

imo this is some sort of political game, not really connected to the censorship issue (unless it gets sorted out with a 'global' solution), as it should be obvious that google must accept a country's laws (however unfair they may be) to be able to function legally in it, also it has been censoring all kinds of material long before, so google itself is no 'innocent' party considering this topic

Perhaps. To me it seems like Google provides a service, and while the Chinese government has the capabilities to filter search results, that they should be responsible for filtering their own internet. But it's a fine thread to balance upon, as Google increases security for their worldwide market they make it harder for the Chinese governement to enact it's own laws. At the same time they can't just roll over and turn over source code or whatnot.

i would disagree, one may live in a golden cage, its still a cage though and again regardless of the system or the country, we see no big improvements in the rich-poor (or privileged-common) constellation, whether quality of life or human liberties are concerned

Could you expand on this point, if you get a moment? I'm not sure I understand your position. On the one hand you seem to be saying that injustices happen regardless of political system, and on the other you said you disagree. I'm just hazy in general on this one.



Thanks for the replies guys. I never quite get the replies I expect, and that's a good thing!

[whateveritakes]

Law is a reference line that made to control people. This only happens when Law in your country could have mean anything! When you were young in school, the world surrounded you convinced you have the most precious thing - freedom, and if you break the law you can lose it, for so long. Most likely, you won't take that chance, you will play by the rules. That's when you are sure you won't get caught, you will break it, if you are greedy enough to take that chance, or you are facing life and death situation. you won't just causally break it for fun, or maybe you will if you are stupid enough to do so.

Education don't just mean knowledge to me, it also means a massive values imbue to me. It is not our people don't behave, it is because people were not educated, a.k.a. "brain washed." What is right what is wrong, they don't have a very clear clue, and seem not everyone cares. When half of the population of your country do not respect law, were not educated to obey law, to follow rules, and you give them freedom? muhaha, try to give a dollar bill to those niggers who chills in downtown, those who looks like a drug acidic to you, you'll know what is gonna happen.

Western Countries always brings up about china is lacking human rights, civilian rights, blah blah blah, our laws are not fair... blah blah blah, our people are exploited work force, blah blah blah... the people who really do concern china's condition, is building schools, education centers in china, they are really working on making it a better place, not just sitting there and complain. it's nothing much different than your classmate tells you, you smells, you should take a shower everyday, you're shoes is old, go get a new pair, your hairs is too long, go get a hair cut... well, if you wanna help, give me a hair cut, if you wanna help give me a bathroom, buy me a new pair of shoes. How about this, you let half of the Chinese people get into your country, and send half your citizens to China? Will you help? My Company is in the property development field, nevertheless, my boss is building clinics, hospitals, schools, everywhere around China.


I talked about Fung Shui in my previous reply, i hope you can understand, it's a science, it is not some superstitious voodoo thing. It's also an interpretation about the university comes from 5000 years ago, a book called "Chou Yi." The author we could not find out anymore, but we believe, he organized the wisdom of the ancient chinese and craved on the stone. Fung Shui is about "yin" "yang", represents Day and Night, Men and Women, good and bad, right and wrong, thingers and thumb, not the object, but the relationship in between. it is about 5 elements, Gold, Wood, Water, Fire, Soil, they do not just mean what the word means, that's why it requires chinese language to have a higher understanding. The basic idea is about balancing. None of anything is useless, none of anything is dispensable. However, importance will jump, because things will change, it's just like day and night, you need your lights at night. You need your heat turned on in the winter, and you need your air-con in the summer. Democracy or Communism, is nothing more than 2 words that you can find in the dictionary. It's December, do you turn your air conditioning on? If you live in California? Well, I do if I live in Australia. Democracy or Communism... same! depends on when and where!

By all means, the complains are important too, it's keeping us on track, however, running too fast will fall, and we cannot afford another one. Pushing too hard will make one fall, and Chinese government is very serious about it. They do not care about motives anymore, they simply ban it for own good. If you let something happened once, you'll have to deal with it forever. It is not a good time to deal with these things yet, there are something more important for the greater good. Well if I keep typing, I could have publish a book LOL...

[slikrapid]

To me it seems like Google provides a service, and while the Chinese government has the capabilities to filter search results, that they should be responsible for filtering their own internet.

its never that simple, especially with large companies/corporations, which tend to mix with politics, exercise their own power, to let the others feel their 'weight' and so on (the google-god as SealLion likes to call it) and also these big companies get used for other goals too

as for the filtering, all it takes is to create an appropriate law in china, no need for them to filter themselves (unless they own an ISP or for testing purposes,...), its law enforced filtering (with consequences, when breached)

they make it harder for the Chinese governement to enact it's own laws.

they may create a few problems, but can't really fight a law (unless, again, they use their political or business/lobby connections to create pressure and maybe get a good deal or a better position out of it)

Democracy or Communism, it's all about the quality of life.

i would disagree, one may live in a golden cage, its still a cage though and again regardless of the system or the country, we see no big improvements in the rich-poor (or privileged-common) constellation, whether quality of life or human liberties are concerned

what i meant by 'disagree' is this part
imo (basic) human rights/liberties are a more important issue than the quality of life, for example - people in the west have been educated that they are a part of an advanced society, with an above average quality of life, that every other country dreams to achieve their status and so on - and as long as one behaves as the system prescribes, without being too curious or persistent, everything is fine & the 'golden cage' is viewed as 'golden' - but when one steps outside of the system boundaries and actually realizes the amount/diversity of human rights/liberties abuse, it becomes apparent that the 'golden' attribute is only an illusion constructed to divert attention from the actual 'cage', wherein human entities are encouraged to conform with the system, play by the rules, obey what is ordered, give up one's individuality & choose the society's mold instead - on the surface the system looks rather organized & slowly progressive, yet beneath it reveals its power/control/profit structure where freedom lies in chains & a virtual-reality illusion of freedom blinds the eyes & lulls the mind, always making sure to compare itself with a lesser system in order to support belief in its superiority

Originally Posted by whateveritakes
What is right what is wrong, they don't have a very clear clue, and seem not everyone cares. When half of the population of your country do not respect law, were not educated to obey law, to follow rules, and you give them freedom?

come on now, the people aren't that ignorant, even the primitive tribes had their rules - freedom is not something given to you by the government (if you obey it or something), its a basic inherent human right and should be treated as such - also, basically, the government is there to serve citizens & their needs, not the other way around (as its power derives from the citizens)

muhaha, try to give a dollar bill to those niggers who chills in downtown, those who looks like a drug acidic, you'll know what is gonna happen.

actually, these addicts aren't much different from any of us - most of them try to cope with their situation, try to avoid conflicts with the law, play their roles, improve their status, contemplate the world & so on

"yin" "yang", represents Day and Night, Men and Women, good and bad, right or wrong, and so on... it is about 5 elements, Gold, Wood, Water, Fire, Soil, they do not just mean what the word means, that's why it requires chinese language to have a higher understanding.

these concepts are similar in many ancient religions, which shows they all have many things in common and that their origins (and their wisdom, 'moral of the story', deeper meaning,...) may be basically/fundamentally the same

You need your heat turned on in the winter, and you need your air-con in the summer.

but then there is the power/control/profit trinity superimposed on various segments of our lives, creating the virtual reality where one is made to believe that he needs the air-con or heat or some other consumer product, when in reality he actually may not even need them at all, but the society/rules/trends/laws/propaganda dictate it is necessary or expected or 'normal'...

running too fast will fall, and we cannot afford another one. Pushing too hard will make one fall, and Chinese government is very serious about it. They do not care about motives anymore, they simply ban it for own good

this sounds contradictory & populist (demagogy) - when a government is very serious about something it means they will push it hard, they will 'run' without caring who is being stomped in the process & naturally, they know all about the 'greater good' (more like aiming for the above mentioned trinity, just by using somewhat different rhetoric & methods compared to their western counterparts)

[whateveritakes]

come on now, the people aren't that ignorant

Sorry about that, some people are "that ignorant," and you can imagine how much is "some" of 1.3 billion. I suggest you come to china, you might change your mind with what you have said afterwards. Use some time to feel the environment, feel the differences, use some time to integrate to the chinese living style~!

For example, lately, Chinese people take fraud calls more than western people take cold calls (selling you stuffs).

The government have to ban motor vehicles on the street, because of the "Loot Riders", there are just too many to catch, they ride their motor bikes near you, fucking cut off your hand, take you your bracelet, in front of a cop station. When there are not enough cops to protect high population, launching an aggressive approach is expected. Something can be changed overnight, something just cannot, while you are trying so hard to solve the fundamental issue, you still have to deal with imperative problems too. What i'm saying is just a tip of the iceberg.

[saebrtooth]

there are huge numbers of people in china that use satellite dishes to circumvent the great firewall. But the authorties just ignore it. An internatioinal student from china told me even if you dont use a dish huge numbers of people get around it, you just need tech savvy.

[slikrapid]

Sorry about that, some people are "that ignorant," and you can imagine how much is "some" of 1.3 billion. I suggest you come to china, you might change your mind with what you have said afterwards. Use some time to feel the environment, feel the differences, use some time to integrate to the chinese living style~!

so, what happened to the education system, isn't it obligatory, aren't people learning some basics,...or is it too hard to finance the education of all the poor & ignorant ones - all of this can change easily, all it takes is the power of will (people & government), a willingness to do it or to cooperate on something or to agree it is a worthy cause - and it has happened before in history, but somehow there was always a deceitful, infectious part of the system, usually near or within the government that wanted to erode & profit from it all (interestingly, the religions haven't been able to fix this...one wonders why)

The government have to ban motor vehicles on the street, because of the "Loot Riders", there are just too many to catch, they ride their motor bikes near you, fucking cut off your hand, take you your bracelet, in front of a cop station. When there are not enough cops to protect high population, launching an aggressive approach is expected.

interesting, if we try to extract the elements in this scenario it would be:

(identifiable) cause: looters, gangs
tools used: motor vehicles, weapons
result: looting, mutilation, fear

measure: ban motor vehicles on the street

so what does the government decide to do? go after the tools
afaik if you really want to solve the problem you gotta find its root (cause) and fix that (not the effects or side-effects) - in this case it would be the looters & gangs, and if the government is really that focused on using an aggressive approach, well, declare war on these gangs and take them out one by one

the real problem here is that governments in the world actually need corruption & gangs/crime/... in order to: have an enemy (the bad guy), be the savior (the good guy), appear active/involved/necessary (continuous crimes & incidents), fortify the 'cage' system ('its for the greater good', 'don't ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country', mind control), hide the 'cage' system (crumbs of improvement) and so on, with the connection to the aforementioned 'trinity'

[hontoCorti]

About the hacking attacks...
Every week ips from china get banned on my email server because they try to bruteforce the passwords:)
I don't get that kind of attacks from any other countries, but i think they are just some individual spammers...

For myself i like democracy more than dictatorship, because if something strange happens in my country i can speak up or publish the facts without getting threatened by the goverment...

If i would be a reporter f.e. in China and blog an article about the three gorges dam and how the people were pressed to leave their homes, did not get enough money to buy new ones and so on... i would at least get a call from the internet police saying that i would have to remove that article and if i don't do it they may visit me and tell me using the more rough way:)

If you then tell me: "Yeah china has another mentality and ethics..", i must admit, that i dislike the kind of ethics that have to do with the facts written above:)

But i also see trends in other countries to repress human rights and muzzle "political" opponents, f.e. in western countries, especially in the name of anti terror laws...

Also the words "We have our own management philosophy about the nation" does not sound good to me...
It should rather be: "The government has their own way of management:)"
I doubt that whole china likes that way and does not want to change it...

The argument that you can not judge over china if you can't talk chinese or are not a chinese is also a bit twisted...
I compare it to a big company... If a company does not run well, often someone outside the company is used to restructure and refurbish things, just because a different (and not so influenced) view can sometimes help:)

Just my cents to the long articles i had to filter 50% off to get some useful information of:)
Btw, feng shui is indeed a type of science, but i would not take predictions of the philosophic sciences too serious(if you are happy with it, do it)...

[whateveritakes]

I just went back to China last couple days. I even took some videos and pictures randomly, there are not enough to show how china is like. I believe I will take even some more when I go back in the Chinese New Year and I don't mind share with you guys who are interested on how china is like these days.

Re slikrapid:

so, what happened to the education system, isn't it obligatory, aren't people learning some basics,...or is it too hard to finance the education of all the poor & ignorant ones - all of this can change easily, all it takes is the power of will (people & government), a willingness to do it or to cooperate on something or to agree it is a worthy cause...

Sorry to say this, slikrapid, but your concept of China & Education itself seemed insufficient. I'm getting what you mean was easy to educate people, all it takes is money, am I getting it correctly? Funding of cause is, and will still be a big problem, and if US government could pay back the fucking loan (80 billion dollars) will fucking help a lot, thank you. However, first, regarding to the population, do you think you can get all those uneducated adults, so let's say getting them back to school and try to educate them with new things? They've lived to their 40s or 50s, they have already got used to it, and found their position in the society. let's say half of these people are willingly go back to schools, how many are there? let's say 30% of pop are in the work force, and 20% needed the education are 1,300,000,000 * 0.3 * 0.2 * 0.5 = 39000000 grass count. Let's say ideally educating these 39 millions people will help the country a lot, where do you find that many schools and teachers?

Second, the next generation is getting a better education, resulting from the development of the huge amount of school numbers increases, in fact, educating younger people will always result a better outcome physically and mentally.

"a willingness to do it or to cooperate on something or to agree it is a worthy cause"
so this is a religion? ok that's why Red Army won the internal war back then. That's why Adolf Hitler almost conquered the world back then. It is an extraordinary measures, and not too many leaders have the skill and charm to do so. In history, usually it only works on situtations when most people are living in unexpected environment, eg, long period of war, long period poverty, long period of hopeless. A charming star showed up in such time, promisingly, give people what they wanted. he/she will, no doubt, receive enough endorsements.

... - and it has happened before in history, but somehow there was always a deceitful, infectious part of the system, usually near or within the government that wanted to erode & profit from it all (interestingly, the religions haven't been able to fix this...one wonders why)

I am not familiar with all history of man kind, but I do believe history is big wheel, looping from time to time. if a similar instance happened before and come with a better reference of solution, I really think it is a good idea to share it, Appreciated.

The "deceitful, infectious part of the system" are still part of the system, and that's why things are complicated. That's why we have to learn our ways to deal them, and manage them. That's why managers get high pays.

In addition, Education is not about teaching, it is about influencing. Why parents always are desperated to get their sons/daughters to a better reputation universities? cuz they understand the power of influence. and that's why you see so many chinese internation students all over the world. However it does not change in a blink. It takes a long long time, proper education will take 20years for each person from elementary to university, imagine you have to fill up 1.3 billion population with average educated peps in a country. No matter how the math is calculated, it still won't be done in another 50 years.(unless they all died suddenly) We have to accept that fact and live with it.

interesting, if we try to extract the elements in this scenario it would be:

(identifiable) cause: looters, gangs
tools used: motor vehicles, weapons
result: looting, mutilation, fear

so what does the government decide to do? go after the tools
afaik if you really want to solve the problem you gotta find its root (cause) and fix that (not the effects or side-effects) - in this case it would be the looters & gangs, and if the government is really that focused on using an aggressive approach, well, declare war on these gangs and take them out one by one

the real problem here is that governments in the world actually need corruption & gangs/crime/... in order to: have an enemy (the bad guy), be the savior (the good guy), appear active/involved/necessary (continuous crimes & incidents), fortify the 'cage' system ('its for the greater good', 'don't ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country', mind control), hide the 'cage' system (crumbs of improvement) and so on, with the connection to the aforementioned 'trinity'

You're half right and half wrong. Besides banning the tools, they also do go after the gangs and looters, however, there were no gangs actually, just looters mostly. There are too many, and the motorcycle problem were long term problem. there are a really high death rate on accidents that occurs with motorcycles. However, in some place, it is extramely high. Banning the motor cycle can break two chain effect that leads to trauma, it sounded worth to me. keeping more people alive and lower the crime rate. well, I thought it was funny too, but when I think deeper, considering the traffic phenomenon in china (which is a fucking mess) it wasn't a bad idea, after all i even thought they were right to do it. You never know, and there will never be an official statistics on the cause effect relationship between the motorcycle and the crime motivation.

1.) You wanted to commit a crime, you chose to riding a motorcycle to doing it.
2.) You have a motorcycle, you cannot resist the temptation of looting for your own good, therefore you chose to commit a crime.

Well, to abandon both motivations, is to ban the motorcycle. It sounded stupid, but it provides good results. At least, there looters back on street will face a lot higher risk on getting caught.

I brought this up was because I was sure when western country heard it, they'll laugh at it, they'll think it's unreasonable. However, what I was telling you about was the differences of the nation. It was like when you were under age, you were restricted to sex, porn, casinos, driving, etc; your parents normally will ground you when you did something bad. Well, same idea.

[slikrapid]

I'm getting what you mean was easy to educate people, all it takes is money, am I getting it correctly?

no, i said all it takes is willingness/will to do it & cooperation of people - if money is the problem, then obviously someone wants to profit instead of helping out

Funding of cause is, and will still be a big problem, and if US government could pay back the fucking loan (80 billion dollars)

now ask yourself who had the money to offer the loan in the first place and wouldn't a part of it have been better spent on, in this example, education purposes?

even so, these people aren't ignorant, just because they had no or very little education - what they have is called natural or life experience kind of wisdom...anyways, to come back to the original point, no one has a right to deny them their (basic) human rights, especially not in a country that would like to see itself as modern/democratic - everything else is just making up excuses, wherein governments all over the world are very proficient, to enforce some kind of censorship or human rights abuse

"a willingness to do it or to cooperate on something or to agree it is a worthy cause"
so this is a religion?

where do you see religion in this quote?
the next quote would certainly qualify as religious:

A charming star showed up in such time, promisingly, give people what they wanted. he/she will, no doubt, receive enough endorsements.

That's why we have to learn our ways to deal them, and manage them. That's why managers get high pays.

actually managers get large income because they were able to picture themselves as something very rare & crucial for success (similar to rare costly commodity or designer clothes), its an artificial illusion of superiority that brings extra big profit, an example of (but not limited to) a capitalist system outcome

In addition, Education is not about teaching, it is about influencing.

depends what are the system's (or teacher's) intentions & methods/subject material, and also on those who are being taught (their ability of critical thinking)

just looters mostly. There are too many, and the motorcycle problem were long term problem. there are a really high death rate on accidents that occurs with motorcycles.

see, thats called a boosting/additional argument, usually needed to sway public opinion when the original argument is rather weak or questionable

anyways, what will happen is a short period of lower looting criminality until the looters adapt to the new situation - they may have lower success rate with being non-motorized, but the essential problem or the cause haven't been solved, just suppressed a bit (which is naturally more then enough to create a political success story out of it) - in addition people are deprived of using motorcycles, but hey, its for their own good, right?

I brought this up was because I was sure when western country heard it, they'll laugh at it, they'll think it's unreasonable. However, what I was telling you about was the differences of the nation. It was like when you were under age, you were restricted to sex, porn, casinos, driving, etc; your parents normally will ground you when you did something bad. Well, same idea.

its likely they might see it as unbelievable/laughable, the sad truth is they themselves have no (or little) idea that they are being manipulated in similar ways by their own governments (as said before - different methods, same goal)

1.) You wanted to commit a crime, you chose to riding a motorcycle to doing it.
2.) You have a motorcycle, you cannot resist the temptation of looting for your own good, therefore you chose to commit a crime.

Well, to abandon both motivations, is to ban the motorcycle. It sounded stupid, but it provides good results.

you don't really believe that, do you?
banning tools leads nowhere, just continues the problem (and adds side effects, like in the motorcycle example), now the looters will use some other tools to continue their goals