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View Full Version : [Ratio Tool] JOAL 1.0.3 / A new RatioMaster (command line and multi-os)



anthony-joal
30.04.17, 15:47
THIS VERSION IS NOW DEPRECATED !
The soft is now available as both a Desktop app or a server-side app.
Desktop app: https://www.sb-innovation.de/showthread.php?threadid=33493
Server-side app: https://www.sb-innovation.de/showthread.php?threadid=33550


Hi there,

What is it?
I recently developed what i think is an improved version of RatioMaster. Its now in active use by more than 1300 users, and it works perfectly.
The soft is coded with Java language and is licenced under Apache 2.0 licence (Open Source and free to use).

17673

How is that better than RatioMaster
The main features of JOAL are :
- Can run 24/7 on a server but also on personal computers (any OS).
- BitTorrent clients are officialy suported and provided by the developer (Vuze, Leap, bittorrent, transmission, utorrent).
- Docker ready (for developper and advanced users).
- Easy to use and configure (no more configuration nightmare).
- Joal is a command line application, but an optional plugable GUI is on the way (see this page (https://github.com/anthonyraymond/joal/issues/4) to how much work remains before v2 comes out)

Here is comparison of RatioMaster VS JOAL features.




RatioMaster
JOAL


Multi-os
No (works with mono Framework)
Yes


Torrent file choosen randomly among multiple files
No
Yes


Can run 24/7 on a GUI-less server
No
Yes


Under active developement
Multiple fork are still maintained by individuals, but initial developer has quit
Yes, and I use it, so i won't quit


BitTorrent clients list officialy updated
No (may be available through forum)
Yes, included in proejct


Graphical user interface (GUI)
Yes, but no way to disable it
No, but an optional GUI is comming in V2


Proxy compliant
Yes
No (Use the system level proxy only)





Download and install
Multiples guides are available :
- For basic users (https://github.com/anthonyraymond/joal/wiki/Install-for-non-developer)
- For advanced users and developers (https://github.com/anthonyraymond/joal)

A french one is also available online but i won't provide link to another forum here, Google it if you want the french version.



Future of the project
As stated before the project is under active developement, and i am currently working on a version 2.0.0 which will include an optional GUI and WebUI.

But i'm working alone on this project so this take times. I'll keep you updated when v2.0.0 comes out.





Feel free to ask questions or send feedback. I'll be glad to answer ;)

CoreCore
02.05.17, 05:10
nice, i will check it out once i get some time...

czullo
03.05.17, 16:52
noobs really need GUI, cant wait 2.0 :)

anthony-joal
03.05.17, 17:21
You'll have to wait a bit ^^. But i'm working on it as much as i can.
The gui itself should be pretty quick.
But modifying the project to make it GUI compliant but not mandatory is kind of a pain in the ass.

You can track 2.0 progress here (https://github.com/anthonyraymond/joal/issues/4).

illusive
06.05.17, 01:25
Good so far. I will test more and even might jump in dev if I got the time. I like it so far really, brilliant since I was thinking (wishing lol) about the existence of exactly such thing (Platform independent & Open source). I wounder why the new RM not mR though :biggrin:

anthony-joal
06.05.17, 02:44
Hey illusive, thanks for your support!
I'd be glad to see one of your PullRequest on GitHub ^^. But if you consider to do so, be sure to be on dev-v2 branch. At the point where i am in the v2 development, adding feature to v1 does not worth it.

About the last point "I wounder why the new RM not mR though", it will sounds really dumb, but what is mR? And how is it different from RatioMaster?

sbrocks
06.05.17, 19:29
hi anthony , this is a great tool, i have tested on my unix
how can i remove the reach 0 peer then automatically stop ?
i want to fake seeding torrent as long as possible

for the config.json
"seedFor": 840,
"waitBetweenSeed": 600,

should we modify these 2 default setting, to let it running like 1 month for faking seeding ? thanks your program is awesome!

anthony-joal
06.05.17, 20:26
Hi sbrock,

The seed is not stopped when a torrent reach 0 peers. But the torrent is moved to "joal-conf/torrents/archived" and won't be used by JOAL anymore. If it happen, JOAl automatically switch to another torrent and start seeding again.

I did that to prevent your account from being ban. It will be super easy for tracker admin to detect people who seed when no leechers are downloading a file. This feature will never have any way to be disabled. It may sound anoying, but it helps keeping your account safe.


You might have missunderstood how JOAL works, it works by cycle :
1) seedFor 840 minutes.
2) Wait befeore seeding again for 600 minutes.
3) seedFor 840 minutes.
4) Wait befeore seeding again for 600 minutes.
5) and so on...

JOAL won't stop unless there is no more torrents in "joal-conf/torrents" which can happen when all your torrents has reached 0 leechers.
If you want you can increase time to seed increase "seedFor". aAd set whatever value for "waitBetweenSeed". I recommend not to set "waitBetweenSeed" less than 16 minutes. (technical issue that will be fixed in v2).

sbrocks
07.05.17, 04:35
It will be super easy for tracker admin to detect people who seed when no leechers are downloading a file. .

hi anthony, here i have different view, imo, i think it's more safe when no leecher downloading the file so i can pretend to seeding, (no files on unix machine) if there is a leecher, i am faking seeding right now, means i dont have the actual movie or music file, the leecher won't get any speed from me if I was the only seeder

i never used the old RatioMater before, but i use mRatio, so i can set the torrent as 100% complete then fake the seeding status to gain seeding bounus etc, will this can be done on JOAL? thanks

anthony-joal
07.05.17, 13:50
Well, it sounds right, but this is not how BitTorrent protocol works.

When using a real client, and generating legit seed
Your client (vuze, utorrent, etc..) send a request to the tracker to tell "Hey here i am, this is my IP Address and the port i'm listening on" for each torrent you whant to seed. This way, the tracker will be aware of any client that download/upload a particular torrent. The tracker is the central point that tell eveyone where to find people who seed a torrent.

After some times (30 minutes for many tracker), the client has to send another request to tell how much he has download and upload for each torrents.

When you close your client, it sends a last request to announce that he quit uploading or downloading. The tracker will remove your address from the seeders list.


Conclusion
As you can see, other peers in the network won't play a role in validating your stats. This is why tracker fails to detect cheaters. The whole protocol is based on trust.


How can we dupe Trackers
Well you should have understand that, since the tracker has to trust you, you can send whatever downloaded/uploaded value you want.


How can the tracker identify cheaters

Uploading to fast: If you upload a terabyte in 30 minutes, you can't fool anyone, the tracker will understand that you cheat.
Uploading on a torrent that does not have leechers: Since the tracker exactly know who are seeding and who are leeching at any time, if you seed but no one is downloading, you'll be detected as well.
Sending request that does not match real clients request: Each client have his very own request format; property order, special properties and so on. This is a super easy way to detect cheater. This is why i personnaly support clients description file for JOAL, and won't accept any help on this.


These are the most common and eay way for a tracker to detect cheaters.



But cheating when you are one in a crowd won't make you suspicious, because it would require such a god damn fucking insane computation power to compare stats for every peers in the world.
There is still risk when you are the only one that seed. You'r right, and i'll add an option in v2. But you are not likely to be detected because the tracker will have to compare stats between peers, and again it will require way to much computation power.


I hope i made things clearer, if not tell me.

sbrocks
08.05.17, 09:42
Uploading on a torrent that does not have leechers: Since the tracker exactly know who are seeding and who are leeching at any time, if you seed but no one is downloading, you'll be detected as well.


thanks all the info, that was very helpful, one case for example, there is a old movie 100GB no one is downloading, leechers = 0 , seeders = 0, then i fake seeding (i didn't have the movie file at all) with 0kb/s speed all the time.

Do you consider this situation as safe or detectable ? cheers!

Codec
08.05.17, 10:27
thanks all the info, that was very helpful, one case for example, there is a old movie 100GB no one is downloading, leechers = 0 , seeders = 0, then i fake seeding (i didn't have the movie file at all) with 0kb/s speed all the time.

Do you consider this situation as safe or detectable ? cheers!

It's not safe. If someone tries to download from you they will notice that they can't connect to you and you appear as connectable. You might get reported to staff. This happens a lot on asiandvdclub. Users report other members who they think is cheating.

anon
08.05.17, 17:32
We shouldn't mix terms up here. Seeding and uploading aren't mutually inclusive. This:


there is a old movie 100GB no one is downloading, leechers = 0 , seeders = 0, then i fake seeding (i didn't have the movie file at all) with 0kb/s speed all the time.

Is safe if you had previously downloaded that particular torrent, or it can be found elsewhere. Now, this:


It will be super easy for tracker admin to detect people who seed when no leechers are downloading a file.

Is unsafe only if you fake upload. Faking seeding without uploading would turn it into the previous situation, and thus make it safe.

I don't mean to be pedantic, it's just a small clarification that may prevent misunderstandings and lost accounts.

anthony-joal
08.05.17, 18:21
We shouldn't mix terms up here. Seeding and uploading aren't mutually inclusive.

You'r right, but in the previous case i assumed that "being a seeder" and "uploading" was the same, because using a upload faker tool just to appear connectable without trying to faking upload is kind of a nonsens.

But semantically you are right ^^.

anon
08.05.17, 18:39
using a upload faker tool just to appear connectable without trying to faking upload is kind of a nonsens.

Some people do that on trackers that give "bonus points" for seeding, which are an indirect way of getting upload, invites and some other benefits. See Razor here (http://www.sb-innovation.de/f51/ideas-where-store-run-torrent-applications-non-stop-33142/#post340658) wanting to seed 2000 torrents he doesn't have the files for :wtongue:

anthony-joal
08.05.17, 19:23
Some people do that on trackers that give "bonus points" for seeding, which are an indirect way of getting upload, invites and some other benefits. See Razor here (http://www.sb-innovation.de/f51/ideas-where-store-run-torrent-applications-non-stop-33142/#post340658) wanting to seed 2000 torrents he doesn't have the files for :wtongue:

Hum.. i didn't know that some tracker used to do that, this is not a common practice in france. I'll think about it.

godtorrent
13.05.17, 01:28
thanks friend, great work

anthony-joal
14.05.17, 22:13
Thanks for the feedback godtorrent :)

d4v3
24.05.17, 05:48
nice. your tranmission client versions dont look right though

anon
24.05.17, 16:16
nice. your tranmission client versions dont look right though

Care to give more details? They will help fix the problem.

anthony-joal
24.05.17, 19:03
nice. your tranmission client versions dont look right though

Hi @d4v3, can you elaborate a little bit? it looks fine to me.
If you are right i'll be glad to fix it soon.

MarkH748
01.06.17, 18:14
Thanks. Would this be safer than using VEM?

Lucius
01.06.17, 21:59
Thanks. Would this be safer than using VEM?

VEM is one word the safest thing ever made.

anthony-joal
01.06.17, 22:18
Thanks. Would this be safer than using VEM?

I don't know VEM, but Lucius is a coder so if he say so, you should trust him. And since it is probably embedded in Vuze, i'll say VEM should be safer.

---------- Post Merged at 21:18 ---------- Previous Post was at 21:17 ----------

JOAL 2.0-beta will be available on the next few weeks, i'd like to have beta tester for this in order to publish a first stable release. If you are interested contact me at joal.contact@gmail.com

Note that this beta won't include Graphical User Interface yet.

anthony-joal
03.06.17, 01:33
nice. your tranmission client versions dont look right though

Just double checked Transmission and it is all OK, i'm using "transmission-2.92 build 14714 for windows".

anon
04.06.17, 06:14
Thanks. Would this be safer than using VEM?

Nothing's safer than VEM, but that's because more than a decade of work went into it =]

anthony-joal
28.06.17, 19:25
Hi there,

One of my beta tester does encouter problem on IpTorrent, but unfortunately he does not have an invite available ATM. Does one of you have one to give away for testing purpose?


PS: I started developping the Destop application for JOAL (take a look at the screenshot here https://github.com/anthonyraymond/joal-electron).

DarkSaibot v.1.3.10
29.06.17, 11:18
wtf -i've missed a few months - when i was back i found NASA launch codes for the Predators homeworld - it has some nice options at the first glance - but for the future to increase the number of members you have to make'it more simpler - wanted to download but when i saw java programming and stuff was overhelming - but i;m stupid when it comes to computers and promming .seriouslly- no joke

but keep up the good work buddy

anthony-joal
29.06.17, 13:58
wtf -i've missed a few months - when i was back i found NASA launch codes for the Predators homeworld - it has some nice options at the first glance - but for the future to increase the number of members you have to make'it more simpler - wanted to download but when i saw java programming and stuff was overhelming - but i;m stupid when it comes to computers and promming .seriouslly- no joke

but keep up the good work buddy
As stated in the above message the desktop app is on development atm.
You can check the screenshot (it looks quite similar to what you will have). One button to start or stop, and a configuration page. I try to keep it as simple as possible to avoid the ratiomaster's configuration nightmare with a 100 checkbox and textbox that nobody really understands.

Drag and drop your .torrents into the application, start it, and it works!

anthony-joal
02.07.17, 22:27
Got a IPTorrent invite thanks to him !

CoreCore
09.07.17, 06:18
I don't use java on my system anymore. I will make to make a integrated portable one to test with lol

anthony-joal
09.07.17, 15:25
I don't use java on my system anymore. I will make to make a integrated portable one to test with lol

:o Why in any world would you like to uninstall Java?

kokoro
11.07.17, 20:18
This is really useful, now I can move all my BitTorrent related stuff to my Linux box.

I have a feature request for the 2.0 update:

I want to use JOAL to "fake-seed" torrents on my tracker (seed without uploading anything) for bonus points; since these torrents already have many seeders (10-20) it would be near impossible to get caught (as leechers will connect to the real seeders).

Would it be possible to add options so that JOAL can seed all torrents continuously at 0 KB/s? Currently JOAL only seeds one torrent for a set amount of time, and refuses to seed torrents if there are no leechers, making it useless for what I want to do.

I understand you are skeptical about adding options to disable these "safety" features since you don't want anyone to get banned. Maybe you could add a warning for people who try to disable them in the readme.md on the GitHub repo, and omit these options in the config.json by default.

anthony-joal
12.07.17, 01:06
Yeah, the fact is, i heard about this "behavior" way to late. It is not a common practice in france, we did not have this feature on the main tracker.
But i will support at a time (maybe 2.0.0 maybe 2.0.1)

---------- Post Merged on 12.07.17 at 00:06 ---------- Previous Post was on 11.07.17 at 19:57 ----------

Here are a sample of the desktop app Joal desktop demo [2017.07.10] (http://imgur.com/a/IRfGR) (will be beta-testable in few weeks)

Works to do before beta starts:

Embed JOAL in the desktop app (currently working from IDE)
Implement drag and drop torrents
Display alerts for all errors and warnings
Add auto-updater

anthony-joal
22.07.17, 03:29
Some news about v2 development:

Desktop app: Drag and Drop for desktop app is now working.
Command line tool: Clients format and generation have been refactored. It emulate perfectly a variety of clients see supported client table here (https://github.com/anthonyraymond/joal/tree/dev-v2#which-client-can-joal-emulate).
Command line tool: All clients files have been updated to last version.


For those interested, a new beta build for command line application is available. It should now be completly undetectable (for the most advanced users you can check the clients files here (https://github.com/anthonyraymond/joal/tree/dev-v2/resources/clients) to make your own opinions).

If you want to access beta builds and chat with other testers send me a private message or a email at : joal.contact@gmail.com. I'll send you a Slack invite.


And one last thing, thanks to all of you for your support :) i really apreciate. Be sure that you'll be firsts to know when V2.0 will be released (after beta testers of course).

Blocker
22.07.17, 03:31
looking forward to try v2

gnome9er
27.07.17, 16:03
yup me too. im amazed to see only 10 installs on this, since its at the top of the list. the simplicity is amazing. i will email about beta testing.

anthony-joal
27.07.17, 19:03
Thanks for your support :)
I think most people don't wan't to bother with Command Line Applications, it should increase with the incomming GUI.

anthony-joal
04.08.17, 16:40
Hi, i got a question and i dont know where to ask so... I'll ask here.

I've seen that most of the client file available on this forum are encrypted (or at least obfuscated) why is that so?
I was going to post a topic about bittorrent client file format, where i could share my knowledge about :
- key generation
- peerid generation
- announce format
And so on for each bittorrent clients.

@anon Before to do so i would be sure there are not problem to post such a topic.

cloud99
05.08.17, 13:25
I've seen that most of the client file available on this forum are encrypted (or at least obfuscated) why is that so?
Encrypted as in? Please be more specific! If you've noticed client files in the mRatio, RatioMaster+, VEM sections, these client files aren't encrypted. They were made using the same algorithm of the original Torrent Client to support the ratio tool it is assigned to.

i.e., Let us consider we are talking about a recent client file http://www.sb-innovation.de/showthread.php?threadid=33421 client file will contain all the perquisites that the original torrent clients contain.
The spheres it will cover are:
1) Qb client's name.
2) The number of reserved bytes the qB saves.
3) The Prefix of qB PeerID it generates.
4) The length, charset, encryption, of the PeerID and Key for qB. Whether or not it is recursive (repeating in the single instance).
5) The way it reports the info-hash of the torrent file.
6) Parameters, protocols used by qB such as uploaded, downloaded, IPV6 (if present), scrape parameters, etc. I'm sure you've got my point. This information when combined into a client file helps the assigned tool to simulate the Orginal Torrent Client.

If you were talking about something else, please specify it.



I was going to post a topic about bittorrent client file format, where i could share my knowledge about :
- key generation
- peerid generation
- announce format
And so on for each bittorrent clients.

Help is always appreciated in all forms, after all, we are a free community. i.e., providing services to the general public for free.
Many client file makers will appreciate your work as it saves them the time to capture announces to create a client file.



Before doing so, I would like to be sure that there is no problem to post such a topic.
Good idea! I don't know of a current section which can benefit from the information you will share. Perhaps you can request for one section for this purpose specifically. It will help members build client files and clear the doubts when something seems dubious.:biggrin:

~cloud99

anthony-joal
06.08.17, 00:00
@cloud99 thanks for your detailed answer.

Indeed encrypted wasn't the correct word, it was actually "encoded", looking at the file you linked, on first glance it looks like BEncoding for those ones. And it makes sense to do so since these kind of app have a BEncoding library anyway.
I shouldn't have my mind clear when i was looking at that ^^.

New section query is available here (http://www.sb-innovation.de/f253/new-section-client-file-format-knowledge-database-33440/).

Thanks for your answer.

anon
06.08.17, 07:48
I've seen that most of the client file available on this forum are encrypted (or at least obfuscated) why is that so?

The authors of mR and RM+ decided it was a better idea to limit the creation of client files to a restricted group of people, who were/are given access to a private program for this task, to eliminate the chances of faulty or fake clients from reaching the public. Naturally, since client files are essentially text, some sort of obfuscation had to be added, or else there would be no difference.

This is not a requirement or "the right answer" by any means. VEM and the original RM don't do it; in the former case ghostfucker actually found it desirable that anyone could create clients, so that they'd do it themselves and wouldn't bother him with requests!


I was going to post a topic about bittorrent client file format, where i could share my knowledge about :
- key generation
- peerid generation
- announce format
And so on for each bittorrent clients.

@anon Before to do so i would be sure there are not problem to post such a topic.

Everyone is allowed to start threads about things they find relevant, no express permission is required for this =]

As for a new section dedicated to this matter, I've posted my thoughts on your request.

anthony-joal
10.08.17, 21:01
Thanks for the subsection (https://www.sb-innovation.de/f275/) anon. Now let's hope people take some time to contribute on these topics.

anthony-joal
14.08.17, 00:28
Hi there, i have some good news.

The WebUi (WebUi only, desktop app will come soon but not yet) is almost ready to be alpha-testable (a matter of days). If you are interested in becoming a beta-tester let me know.


You can take a look at how it looks here (http://imgur.com/TLXhAwD).

klown23
15.08.17, 10:53
Thats looks awesome!
I have used the command-line version and it was great. I would be happy to become a beta-tester.

anthony-joal
15.08.17, 12:21
Thats looks awesome!
I have used the command-line version and it was great. I would be happy to become a beta-tester.

Nice :) send me an email at joal.contact@gmail.com. i'll send you an invite for joining us on slack. I'll give you the necessary stuff there

anthony-joal
06.09.17, 04:00
Hey guys, i'm looking for a logo, and i was wondering if some of you had some drawing/design skills.

There will be no money counterpart (because it's an open source project and also because i don't have any). But you'll got a big thanks from me :D, and you'll get a good place in the Thanks (https://github.com/anthonyraymond/joal/blob/dev-v2/THANKS.md) section.

If you are interested here is what i would like:


I would like a rounded icon (liek that https://desktop.github.com/images/desktop-icon.svg).
As a background color i would like something close to #28e0cd. (i'm open on the color choice).
I don't want any typos.

In the middle of the icon (where the octocat stands in the above example) i would like a logo, an owl, something graphical (something like that https://goo.gl/RrW1mp).
I would like the owl to be "cute" "badass". I would prefer just the head of the owl (not the full body).

Concerning the owl colors i don't have any preferences, it's up to you.

anon
07.09.17, 19:50
http://www.sb-innovation.de/attachment.php?attachmentid=18255

Sorry for the fluff, I just wanted to give your request a bump. I'm horrible at drawing, I even failed one of my art classes once.

anthony-joal
07.09.17, 23:10
Haha, nice try ^^. Thanks for the bump :)

cloud99
08.09.17, 08:57
Haha, nice try ^^. Thanks for the bump :)

Why don't you try out Deviant art: https://www.deviantart.com/? You can request for some art done provided you rate their work: https://requests-are-open.deviantart.com/

anthony-joal
08.09.17, 13:09
Why don't you try out Deviant art: https://www.deviantart.com/? You can request for some art done provided you rate their work: https://requests-are-open.deviantart.com/

Didn't know about that. I will definely take a look at that :D. Thanks cloud99 :)

zora
09.09.17, 22:51
I'm not the best at photoshop and that cute/badass owl is something way above my skillset but here's what I came up with.
http://i65.tinypic.com/keelia.png

Edit: Let me know if you like it and I can send you a 3000 x 3000 .psd version of it. I'm pretty sure tinypic resizes their images before uploading

H265
09.09.17, 23:28
I'm not the best at photoshop and that cute/badass owl is something way above my skillset but here's what I came up with.
image (http://i65.tinypic.com/keelia.png)

Edit: Let me know if you like it and I can send you a 3000 x 3000 .psd version of it. I'm pretty sure tinypic resizes their images before uploading

This looks really good. :top:

anthony-joal
10.09.17, 00:00
Looks very good :).
I'll definely use this one for the 2.0.0 release :)

Thanks zora.

The psd may be nice if you can upload it somewhere :)

zora
10.09.17, 00:53
Glad you liked it!

Here's the photoshop file! https://www.dropbox.com/s/61rfe2qf7z3xyfj/JOAL.psd?dl=0

anthony-joal
17.09.17, 01:41
The desktop app (Joal-Desktop) has been release (with the v2.0.0 embeded). https://www.sb-innovation.de/showthread.php?threadid=33493 !

anon
17.09.17, 02:32
Post is currently in moderation queue

Not anymore =]

anthony-joal
17.09.17, 13:14
Not anymore =]

Thanks anon :)
Is it possible to have the joal-desktop post as a modification (just like this one), currently it's just a regular post.

anon
17.09.17, 20:36
Is it possible to have the joal-desktop post as a modification (just like this one), currently it's just a regular post.

Done, it took me a while to find the option, but I did. I also replaced this "old" JOAL with the new version in the announcement box.

anthony-joal
17.09.17, 21:06
Done, it took me a while to find the option, but I did. I also replaced this "old" JOAL with the new version in the announcement box.

Nice :)
Thanks anon.

gnome9er
13.10.17, 15:02
is that owl logo icon freehand, or stock?

anthony-joal
13.10.17, 18:51
Hi gnome9er,
I'm sorry but i'm not a native english speaker what does freehand or stock means?

Ps: this is the thread for joal 1. Joal 2 is out if you are interested.

anon
14.10.17, 20:46
I think he wants to know if the logo was made by hand or is a stock image.

Stock photography - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_photography)

Last page suggests the former :wtongue:

anthony-joal
14.10.17, 20:54
Ah, alright,
thanks for the translation anon ^^.

The logo was made by Zora (https://www.sb-innovation.de/members/50744-zora) :).

kokoro
20.10.17, 19:55
Is there a thread for the command-line server version for JOAL 2.0? I can't seem to find it.

anthony-joal
20.10.17, 22:47
Not yet, but i'll add it tonight by the end of the week.

anon
20.10.17, 23:21
There isn't, but joal-desktop includes the new command line version, so you can post at http://www.sb-innovation.de/showthread.php?threadid=33493 Never mind, the above post didn't exist when I typed this =] I'll get online a few hours from now, I'll approve the new thread if it's there then.